3 hours ago
3
The pursuing is the afloat transcript of an interrogation with erstwhile Defense Secretary Robert Gates, a information of which aired connected "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" connected May 18, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, if you're ready, we'll excavation in.
FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ROBERT GATES: Okay.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And there's a batch to inquire you about, sir. So President Trump conscionable concluded this week-long travel done the Middle East. He's lifted sanctions connected Syria and its interim caller government. He is trying to get immoderate benignant of diplomatic woody with Iran. He's courting a batch of Gulf money. So far, nary occurrence successful getting Israel to halt its warfare successful Gaza. But however would you justice his overseas argumentation absorption to date?
SEC. GATES: What's absorbing to maine is that we're backmost successful the Middle East, aft each the speech astir the pivot to Asia and- and China and truthful on. We person 2 craft carriers, onslaught groups, successful the Middle East. We had the president successful the Middle East. I don't person to accidental this though, Margaret, I think, ironically, the Middle East whitethorn beryllium 1 spot wherever determination are immoderate existent opportunities and- and- and possibilities. I deliberation that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE, are each truthful focused connected diversifying their economies, reforming, modernizing, bringing their populations into the 21st century. It's a- it's a spot to bash business, for China, for the United States, for everybody else. The actions of Israel, station the October 7 massacre by Hamas, has truly changed the strategical equation successful the Middle East, due to the fact that Iran has been dramatically weakened, chiefly by Israel's attacks connected Hamas, connected the attack- our attacks connected the Houthis, but also, and especially, Hezbollah, and the weakening of Hezbollah. And with the autumn of Assad, Syria is nary longer a conduit for Iranian weapons to get to Hezbollah. So- and past you adhd to that, the Iranian- the Israeli aerial onslaught connected the Iranian atomic installation that fundamentally wiped retired their aerial defenses. Iran's successful a precise anemic spot now. And if determination is an accidental to bash a woody connected nuclear, this is it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, erstwhile it comes to that atomic program, you didn't truly similar the Obama epoch atomic woody with Iran. President Trump is trying thing that whitethorn beryllium somewhat similar. What bash you deliberation has to beryllium successful it for it to truly beryllium a success?
SEC. GATES: Well, I think- I- I would hold with those successful the Senate and- and elsewhere that Iran truly has to halt their atomic program. They person to halt their enrichment entirely. And they person to springiness up--
(BEGIN CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Entirely, not just--
SEC. GATES: Entirely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --highly enriched, each enrichment?
SEC. GATES: Entirely. And- and if they privation to person a civilian atomic program, they request to import the uranium, the enriched uranium, to bash that. But they request to get escaped of the stockpile. They were- they were expected to get escaped of a large portion of the stockpile earlier. But I think- I deliberation conscionable fixed the quality of their programme and the secretiveness of the full thing, I deliberation successful presumption of monitoring compliance, you truly person to get escaped of- of- of their programme successful a mode that it tin beryllium monitored by planetary experts from the IAEA or- oregon whoever. But I- you know, 1 of my concerns, and- and- that's not going- with the earlier agreement, that's seemingly not going to beryllium addressed and won't beryllium successful this, was the request for them to get escaped of their ballistic rocket programs. And I deliberation that's not going to beryllium in- if determination is an agreement, it doesn't look to maine similar that's going to beryllium a portion of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you said, nary enrichment. It's not wide what the president's argumentation is, due to the fact that helium has antithetic advisors who accidental antithetic things astir what the extremity authorities is. And immoderate of that, according to our reporting, is due to the fact that the president has to marque immoderate of those precise cardinal argumentation decisions still. That's a antithetic approach, I'm sure, from White Houses you worked in, wherever you went successful with a goal, a strategy, and you worked backmost from there. Not, let's talk, and past fig retired the strategy.
SEC. GATES: Well, I person the impression, and- and I- I don't speech to anybody successful the administration, but- truthful it's conscionable what I perceive and what I read. But, I deliberation that his attack is, let's prosecute these antithetic avenues and spot however acold we tin get, and if we tin get a woody that includes getting escaped of the entire- wholly of the enrichment, past that's what we ought to strive for. But if we can't, possibly we settee for thing abbreviated of that. And- and I deliberation it's fundamentally conscionable playing it tactically, if you will, successful presumption of seeing what's possible, but with the wide nonsubjective of getting immoderate benignant of an agreement, and I would anticipation 1 that tin beryllium monitored by the U.S. oregon by others to marque definite the Iranians aren't cheating.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Would you reason an Israeli onslaught with U.S. enactment connected Iran's atomic program?
SEC. GATES: The occupation that I've had with a onslaught connected the Iranian atomic program, from the clip I was secretary, is that it buys you a twelvemonth oregon two. You're not going to beryllium capable to destroy, abbreviated of- arsenic agelong arsenic you're utilizing accepted weapons, you cannot get astatine the precise profoundly buried parts of the Iranian atomic program. That's wherefore connected tract inspection is truthful important, due to the fact that you truly can't- there's no- there's nary benignant of ordnance. Even our monolithic ordnance penetrator won't get that acold down. So my statement is, if you onslaught their atomic programme successful a mode designed to effort and destruct it, you volition simply marque the Iranians much determined to person a atomic limb and to hide the full programme adjacent deeper. It buys you a small time, but it doesn't lick the problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president seems to beryllium saying, the menace of subject unit exists, but helium truly wants a diplomatic deal.
SEC. GATES: That's surely my impression.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you person a past with Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. You're smiling. His government, you've said, acts similar an ungrateful ally. We're starting to spot immoderate points of friction with the Trump medication and the Netanyahu authorities successful particular. Are- are we astatine the constituent present wherever President Trump needs to publically beryllium wide that the warfare successful Gaza has to end, and withhold U.S. enactment if it doesn't?
SEC. GATES: I deliberation it would beryllium a precise dense governmental assistance for the President to accidental he's going to chopped disconnected subject supplies to Israel, unless they halt successful Gaza. I deliberation helium tin accidental a batch of things successful presumption of putting unit connected Netanyahu to halt the war. He tin enactment guardant proposals connected however humanitarian assistance and different things mightiness might spell forward. But I would- I- it would beryllium precise hard for immoderate U.S. president, I think, to accidental we're conscionable going to chopped Israel disconnected from subject supplies--
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you did support- I retrieve President Biden's determination to withhold precise specific- actually, conscionable hold transportation of precise circumstantial weapons.
SEC. GATES: Well, implicit time, and including erstwhile I was Secretary, I opposed providing Israel with definite kinds of ordinance, chiefly due to the fact that what they wanted was the benignant of ordinance that would let them to onslaught Israel- onslaught the Iranian atomic program.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is determination a outgo to this ongoing enactment of specified a bloody war, fixed the projections from U.S. quality astir the agelong word recruitment of- among panic groups astir the satellite due to the fact that of the devastation?
SEC. GATES: I deliberation determination is simply a cost. I deliberation it does supply a ground for radicalization successful the region. But it is absorbing to maine that you're not proceeding overmuch retired of the Gulf Arabs and- and others successful presumption of decrying the ongoing operations and truthful on. I think- I mean, what has been the lawsuit to- to day is that the Saudis person truly insisted that determination beryllium thing for the Palestinian radical earlier they would do- earlier they would found diplomatic relations with Israel. I don't cognize arsenic a effect of this week's talks whether that whitethorn person shifted successful immoderate way, but- but intelligibly they are disquieted astir the feelings of their ain radical toward the- successful their countries, astir the- astir what has happened to the Palestinians, and what is continuing to hap to the Palestinians. And I deliberation they are disquieted that- that determination could beryllium immoderate protests and- and beardown feelings connected the portion of their populations. And the governments, I think, are each for establishing relationships with with Israel, as- arsenic the UAE and others person done. But I think- I deliberation that it's inactive a occupation for the Saudis.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I privation to determination to different portion of the world, and that is Ukraine. Secretary of State Rubio said helium believes that determination won't beryllium a wide work connected Vladimir Putin's intentions until helium sits down with President Donald Trump. You've met Putin before. Would you- what would you counsel for that one-on-one? And does it truly instrumentality a face-to-face to justice Putin's intentions?
SEC. GATES: I'm not definite adjacent successful a look to look that you tin justice Putin's intentions. My ain view, having dealt with him and having spent astir of my beingness moving connected Russia and the Soviet Union, is Putin feels that helium has a destiny to recreate the Russian Empire. And arsenic my aged mentor, Zbigniew Brzezinski erstwhile said, without Ukraine, determination tin beryllium nary Russian Empire. So I deliberation the President is- based connected what I read, is getting the consciousness that, arsenic helium enactment it, that Putin is tapping him on and- and that, you know, Putin hasn't fixed up connected immoderate of his archetypal goals successful Ukraine. He's going to importune connected occupying each 4 of the eastbound provinces of the Donbas. Perpetual designation of Russian ownership of Crimea. A pro Russian authorities successful Kyiv and a Ukrainian subject that looks a batch similar an enhanced constabulary force. And, nary rank successful NATO and astir apt nary rank successful the EU helium wants- helium wants Ukraine, basically, to beryllium a lawsuit authorities of Russia. And I don't- I don't spot what it would instrumentality to get him to locomotion distant from immoderate of those goals successful the foreseeable future. I mean, erstwhile you look astatine 900,000 oregon truthful Russian soldiers that person been killed oregon wounded. He's paid a immense price- the Russian system and truthful on. It hasn't deterred him successful the slightest.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Has helium paid a price, though? Because determination are analysts who look astatine the mode he's reoriented that system astir his military, the information that helium gets that lifeline from China, and accidental sanctions haven't made him buckle 1 spot successful his tendency to proceed this war.
SEC. GATES: No, that's perfectly correct. And helium has militarized the economy, and perfectly determination has been a cost- a agelong word outgo for the Russian people. You know, you've had upwards of a cardinal young Russian- chiefly men, fly the country. Young tech guys, entrepreneurs and others who thought they had a aboriginal successful Russia and- and erstwhile the warfare started, decided they didn't. And- and the implicit reorientation of the- of the system for the subject concern complex, arsenic you will, it is precise overmuch what the Soviets did successful galore respects and- and I deliberation he's got 21% involvement rates. I mean, the system is chugging along, it's got affirmative growth, but it's artificial. The lone root of income of gross for the Russian authorities is lipid and gas. The occupation that Putin has is implicit time, those are aged lipid and state fields, and what was enabling the Russians to extract from those fields was Western technology, the Exxons, the Chevrons, the different large lipid companies from the West that had the technology. That's each gone. So implicit time, the gross watercourse from lipid and state from Russia is going to diminish, and astir apt reasonably dramatically, but it'll instrumentality time. So agelong term, helium has- helium has, I think, outgo Russia enormously. But that doesn't mean that successful the abbreviated to adjacent term, it's going to unit him to alteration immoderate of his policies.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Would you counsel President Trump not to instrumentality that face-to-face, adjacent if Vladimir Putin was consenting to bash it?
SEC. GATES: I would similar to spot what if- I were ever asked, I would accidental you request to fig retired immoderate leverage that you person going into that gathering with Putin. What- what can- what tin you bash that puts much unit to carnivore connected Putin to marque him judge his- his interests are served by not conscionable a ceasefire, but a- basically, astatine slightest freezing things successful place.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We've seen a precise antithetic attack to this diplomacy, too. The President has been relying connected his adjacent person Steve Witkoff, this erstwhile existent property developer, to truly beryllium the look with immoderate of the astir thorny issues we person successful the nationalist information portfolio, including gathering with the Iranian negotiator implicit a atomic program, including getting face-to- look with Vladimir Putin. There is simply a worth successful having a caller acceptable of eyes. But is it advisable to enactment speech the experts, including American translators, and not see them successful those meetings?
SEC. GATES: Well, I've ever believed that it's a mistake not to person an American interpreter successful meetings. The President and Mr. Witkoff are not the archetypal Americans to believe- and he's not the archetypal president to believe, helium doesn't request an American interpreter successful the room. I deliberation it's ever a mistake, due to the fact that you ne'er cognize that what you're saying is, successful fact, being interpreted to Putin oregon whoever, precisely arsenic you said it. And truthful I deliberation that's a mistake. On the different hand, you know, bringing caller eyes and caller humor to immoderate of these problems. You know, I cognize radical who've been progressive successful the Middle East negotiations for bid for 30 years, you know, and person not overmuch to amusement for it, and past each of a sudden, you bring successful idiosyncratic else, and things hap similar the Abraham Accords. So I- I'm not- I'm not consenting to accidental that you shouldn't bring successful immoderate radical that person not got a batch of experience. In fact, 1 of the reasons successful 2016 I recommended Rex Tillerson to the- to President Trump for his archetypal Secretary of State, was precisely because, arsenic a businessman, not a diplomat, but arsenic a businessman, Tillerson had negotiated with pugnacious guys each implicit the satellite for astir of his career. So I deliberation bringing idiosyncratic with concern inheritance successful who's done this benignant of thing, it whitethorn marque a batch of sense.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Even erstwhile they're sitting crossed some- from idiosyncratic who has spent decades facing disconnected with Americans? Or successful the lawsuit of the Iranian atomic negotiations, idiosyncratic who negotiated the past atomic accord? That's a batch of experience--
SEC. GATES: --I think- I deliberation conscionable due to the fact that the feline connected the different broadside of the array has been doing it for a agelong clip doesn't mean you- you can't bring successful somebody- idiosyncratic fresh, idiosyncratic new.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How sustainable bash you deliberation it is for the Secretary of State to besides beryllium the nationalist information adviser, the acting archivist and the acting manager of USAID?
SEC. GATES: It's absorbing a batch of radical constituent to the precedent of erstwhile Henry Kissinger was Secretary of State and National Security Advisor from 1973 to 1975. I was astatine the NSC during astir of that period, and each I tin archer you is Henry Kissinger was an absentee landlord. I mean, what made it enactment successful that clip was that Henry had a precise experienced and omniscient lawman successful General Brent Scowcroft. And Scowcroft fundamentally ran the NSC time to day, and Henry would look present and then, but- but chiefly did his Secretary of State job. He inactive had the rubric and a batch of papers going to the presidents from the NSC inactive went done him, but- but time to day, the NSC and the full interagency process was truly managed by Scowcroft. So whether oregon not this volition work, I think, depends connected whether the Secretary of State has a lawman astatine the NSC who is precise experienced, knows the interagency and- and- and is respected and trusted by the President.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There is simply a unsocial situation with the NSC, with this president I've heard from officials which is helium does not spot the National Security Council due to the fact that of the past with the archetypal impeachment. So helium is fishy of a batch of radical who beryllium there. What's the information of that, erstwhile you don't spot the radical who are briefing you connected immoderate of the astir delicate nationalist information issues, oregon advising you?
SEC. GATES: I deliberation it's important for radical to remember, and I tried to observe this myself- since I worked connected the NSC nether 4 presidents, the NSC is the President's idiosyncratic overseas argumentation staff. So I deliberation if- if radical connected the NSC, and I don't attraction whether they travel from the State Department oregon CIA oregon the subject oregon anyplace other oregon from the outside. If you can't- in- connected that staff, if you can't beryllium loyal to the president, past you should leave.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What bash you mean loyal?
SEC. GATES: I mean beryllium willing- clasp his policies and bash what you tin to instrumentality those policies and to guarantee that the different agencies are implementing the President's policies. And erstwhile the clip comes, if the clip comes, that you disagree with those policies, past it seems to maine it's incumbent connected you to instrumentality to your bureau oregon to permission the government. I can't- this is truly an important point. This is his idiosyncratic staff. This is the unit that drafts his letters going backmost to different leaders. This is the unit that does his talking points for meetings with overseas leaders and provides inheritance accusation for him. So I think- I deliberation helium has a close to- to expect loyalty. What I- my line- my line, erstwhile I was astatine the NSC, was beryllium loyal oregon beryllium gone.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Including erstwhile it means having a antithetic presumption of the past predetermination oregon having household members who enactment successful the Justice Department? I mean, determination are immoderate antithetic definitions of loyalty.
SEC. GATES: Absolutely. And again, if, if you- if you- if your views are- if you clasp views that are unacceptable to the President connected things similar that, similar the predetermination and truthful on, past you astir apt don't beryllium successful his NSC staff. Maybe you beryllium astatine the State Department oregon astatine CIA oregon someplace, but you don't beryllium wrong the White House complex. I mean, I cognize that's a hard happening to say, but, but I've watched this and and, and I've seen- you know, if you spell backmost to the Nixon days, a fig of- a fig of NSC staffers resigned from the NSC implicit Vietnam due to the fact that of the bombing campaigns and truthful on. So that's- those are the kinds of issues, it seems to me, where- wherever you request to beryllium loyal. I deliberation you request to springiness the president your honorable views connected things, connected the subjects that you're successful complaint of. And it whitethorn beryllium unwelcome to him, but helium needs to perceive antithetic perspectives and antithetic points of view. So being loyal doesn't mean not- it doesn't mean pulling your punches successful presumption of the argumentation debate, but erstwhile the president's made a decision, past you person to salute.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On the constituent of honestly briefing and giving sometimes hard to present accusation that's necessary. You were not conscionable a manager astatine the CIA, you were a long-time CIA idiosyncratic yourself. The president gets that regular briefing. A batch of that intel comes from the agency. The existent Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, CBS is reporting she's truly trying to exert much power implicit that regular brief, propulsion it distant from the agency. Does that interest you?
SEC. GATES: She's not the archetypal to effort and bash that. There were moves successful that direction, actually, during the Reagan administration. And we started including successful the President's regular little contributions from, say, the Defense Intelligence Agency that had not been done before. But I think- I deliberation that, you know, having that, you know, the Director of National Intelligence, I think, was not expected to benignant of instrumentality a regular supervisory relation implicit the contented of the accusation flowing to the president. I think, you know, we would get accusation from NSA, from DIA, from each these antithetic agencies. CIA did enactment unneurotic the president's brief, but my knowing is successful caller years, there's been much and much of a determination to person different members of the quality assemblage collaborate connected putting unneurotic the president's regular brief. So I'm I'm not truly alert of the details close now, but, but it seems to maine that- I retrieve when, I erstwhile I was caput of the analytical broadside of CIA, astir apt the Director of Central Intelligence who took the top day-to-day involvement successful the PDB was Jimmy Carter's Director of Central Intelligence, Admiral Stanfield Turner, who would virtually edit the PDB earlier it was enactment to bed. Most D.C. eyes person not touched the PDB. They have, they person let- fto the professionals enactment successful determination what they needed to enactment successful there, and then, and past they got the fury of the president erstwhile helium disagreed with thing that was successful the PDB.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you person immoderate concerns erstwhile you look astatine immoderate of the reshaping, immoderate of the firings wrong quality that- the 2 heads, for example, of the National Intelligence Council, were conscionable dismissed by Gabbard.
SEC. GATES: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't cognize capable astir the details to beryllium capable to comment. The 1 happening that I would accidental concerns me, some astatine CIA and astatine the Defense Department, are the firings of probationary employees--
MARGARET BRENNAN: The caller blood.
SEC. GATES: These are the- this is the aboriginal of these organizations. These are the young radical dedicated to nationalist work who bring successful skills specified arsenic information analytics and truthful on, that- that are their older peer- radical don't have, and they're the aboriginal of the agency. And determination are ways to trim the manpower and trim the fig of radical astatine these agencies, and astir agencies should beryllium reformed and should beryllium made much thin and much efficient, but there's a mode to bash it that doesn't shortcut the aboriginal and besides doesn't extremity up firing radical that really are truly needed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you deliberation that's what Elon Musk and the DOGE effort did?
SEC. GATES: I deliberation so.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That America mislaid caller talent--
SEC. GATES: I deliberation there--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --that was important.
SEC. GATES: I deliberation determination has been a outgo successful endowment with the categorization of the people. And I deliberation the crushed that probationaries were enactment astatine the apical was due to the fact that they're easier to occurrence and- but that doesn't mean that was the close happening to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When we look astir the satellite close now, determination are a batch of blistery spots, not conscionable this onshore warfare successful Ukraine, successful the mediate of Europe, you person rocket attacks betwixt 2 atomic powers, India and Pakistan, you person China's accrued aggression successful Asia, the ongoing Israeli war, arsenic we talked about. Two years ago, I re-read this effort that you wrote 2 years ago, and you said the U.S. confronts graver threats to its information than it ever has. Two years later, what does the playing tract look similar to you?
SEC. GATES: I deliberation that if anything, the peril has gotten greater, simply due to the fact that some Russia and particularly China person importantly accrued their arsenals and their subject power. And particularly, arsenic I accidental successful the lawsuit of China, China has been overmuch much assertive successful the Taiwan Strait and successful the South China Sea than they were 2 years ago. I deliberation they enactment themselves successful a position, if they chose to bash so, to enactment fundamentally a stranglehold astir Taiwan successful presumption of shipping and truthful on. And you know, what we've ne'er faced earlier is large, assertive atomic powers, some successful Europe and successful Asia, collaborating. And what we are facing contiguous we've ne'er faced arsenic a country, is simply a state that's astir arsenic affluent arsenic we are, that is technologically advanced, competing with america successful galore areas of technology, exertion advances and- and 1 that has unanswered ambitions, unfulfilled ambitions--
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're talking astir China.
SEC. GATES: --in the neighborhood, each China. And so, you know, China is the bigger menace by far, but doesn't negate the 1,500 atomic weapons that the Russians person either.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yet.
SEC GATES: I'm sorry?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yet, they're expanding, right?
SEC GATES: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you've said, though, of China, I mean, you look astatine what's happening with their expansion. There was this commercialized warfare that connected Monday was paused successful immoderate mode successful presumption of the tariffs. There are immoderate that are inactive successful place, but immoderate delayed for astatine slightest 90 days. Was determination a point? Was determination a triumph that came retired of this confrontation?
SEC. GATES: My presumption is that if China is your superior competitor, your superior rival, your superior adversary, and we tin debar a subject confrontation with China, past the result is going to be- is going to beryllium settled by non-military instruments of power, supra all, economics. And you would deliberation that if we were going to enactment important further economical unit connected China, we would privation each the different countries astir the satellite to beryllium connected our broadside of the array and consenting to collaborate with america successful putting those pressures connected China and saying you can't- you can't behave the mode you person been. You can't dump, you can't bargain intelligence property, you can't bash these things. And to person astir of the developed countries successful the world, successful essence, echoing each different and connected the aforesaid page. Declaring commercialized wars connected each of them did not, shall we say, heighten their willingness to collaborate with america against China. So who's the main enemy? And I deliberation that's ever the cardinal question. I recognize the imbalance successful commercialized and- and that different countries, the Europeans, person ne'er done arsenic overmuch since the extremity of the Cold War connected defence arsenic they should. I bellowed astir it, similar a batch of different American officials. But the question is, what's the main strategical threat, and what's the champion strategy for dealing with that threat?
MARGARET BRENNAN: So having a tariff warfare with Europe, Japan, South Korea, each the allies astatine once, you're saying is aforesaid defeating.
SEC. GATES: I think- I deliberation it doesn't marque strategical sense. Now, others look astatine it from a much purely economical standpoint, and I recognize that. But- but I deliberation we person to, we person to decide, you know, is much gross and reshoring- however does much gross and reshoring of manufacturing equilibrium disconnected against what galore successful this medication consider, and some Republicans and Democrats connected the Hill, see to beryllium the main, the main threat. And are determination ways that you use those tariffs successful ways that possibly execute some goals.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You wrote successful Foreign Affairs, President Trump's "disdain for U.S. allies, his fondness for authoritarian leaders, his willingness to sow uncertainty astir the United States' committedness to NATO allies, and his mostly erratic behaviour undermined america credibility and respect crossed the globe." That was astir his archetypal term. He's back. Are you seeing a repetition of those behaviors now?
SEC. GATES: I deliberation that- I deliberation that helium has been much cautious astir the connection that helium has used. He has not talked astir not warring for different countries. He hasn't said, well, I'm not going to enactment successful Article V, we're not going to spell to warfare for Europe. I mean, there's been immoderate pugnacious connection toward the Europeans, the Vice President successful Munich and truthful on, but--
MARGARET BRENNAN: He said things again about, ohio if they don't wage up--
SEC. GATES: It's clear--
MARGARET BRENNAN: We don't instrumentality it seriously.
SEC. GATES: It's wide helium does not spot the allies- spot our allies as- arsenic an important plus for America's nationalist interests, arsenic a batch of america do. I think, and- and the Europeans person fixed him ammunition by not being consenting to supply for their ain defence successful adjacent the astir humble way. But I deliberation helium has avoids- avoided immoderate of the much inflammatory connection toward NATO that helium utilized successful the archetypal term.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I privation to inquire astir the Pentagon, which you ran for a while. You perceive a batch these days astir individuality politics, including erstwhile the Secretary of Defense addresses troops. Warrior and warfare warring ethos is the mantra. You utilized to spell retired and talk to troops, including those serving overseas. What bash you deliberation that benignant of connection is doing? Is that the close tone?
SEC. GATES: Well, I deliberation that- I mean it- arsenic I recognize it, it derives from a content that successful the Biden administration, that the enactment of the Pentagon was distracted by the request to prosecute diverseness in- initiatives and truthful on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you deliberation they were?
SEC. GATES: You know, I unrecorded a agelong mode from the Pentagon. I don't know. I deliberation that, you know, if you look astatine what immoderate of the subject leaders person said, the magnitude of clip that soldiers and leaders really spent connected those issues was beauteous small, but it whitethorn person been much the absorption of nationalist remarks and things similar that. I don't cognize whether it distracted radical oregon not, but I know- I mean, my presumption is that a large portion of the warrior ethos is taking attraction of your people. Every Second Lieutenant learns that, archetypal thing. And- and truthful I think- deliberation having a absorption connected being combat ready, connected fitness, connected those kinds of things perfectly makes consciousness and- and I deliberation making sure- and erstwhile we talked astir assorted changes, specified arsenic the determination made that I made successful presumption of women serving connected submarines, and women going into the Special Forces and truthful on, the enactment ever was, you can't compromise the standards. The expectations for women request to beryllium precisely the aforesaid arsenic they are for men and- and truthful a absorption connected that benignant of meritocracy, I think, besides makes sense. But I deliberation you besides person to retrieve the subject needs to look similar the American people, and it does. And you tin telephone it immoderate you want, but- but we are amended served, successful my view, by a subject that reflects the American radical and- and I deliberation it does astatine this point.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The past 2 nationalist defence strategies said the U.S. subject is not postured oregon equipped to combat wars against 2 large rivals astatine the aforesaid time. You've talked astir the request to money defence more. Right now, adjacent the Republican Chair of the Armed Services Committee says the White House isn't doing enough. If the absorption is connected war, warring and a warrior ethos, isn't that contradictory?
SEC. GATES: I deliberation determination is simply a wide knowing astir 2 things. One is the Pentagon needs to get overmuch much businesslike and needs to beryllium reformed, particularly erstwhile it comes to acquisitions and the integration of caller technologies. The 2nd is that it needs much wealth to bash those things and- and to money caller capabilities. The Department of Defense has not had a fund going into the fiscal twelvemonth for 15 years. If determination isn't- if that isn't a dereliction of work by the Congress, I don't cognize what is. Because erstwhile you person a continuing resolution, you can't commencement thing new, you can't adhd to anything. People speech about- astir expanding the vessel gathering capabilities, astir expanding our defence concern capableness and truthful on. And for each the speeches they make, nothing's happening due to the fact that they haven't voted a azygous dollar to bash immoderate of those things. So determination is this- and I don't understand, nether the circumstances, wherefore the administration's fund puts guardant a fund for the Pentagon that, arsenic I recognize it, is fundamentally flat, which, fixed immoderate ostentation means a cut.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's precisely what the Republican Chair of the Armed Services Committee – helium said "it's going to shred to the bony our subject capabilities and enactment to work members." He said it amounts to a chopped and that it contradicts what the President had promised.
SEC. GATES: There has to beryllium an statement betwixt the president and the Congress connected really what has to beryllium done to recapture our industrial- subject concern capabilities, and- and past for Congress to ballot the wealth successful a timely way. Let maine springiness you 1 illustration of- of however large the spread is with China. Between 2017 and 2024, the fig of warships successful our Navy stayed fundamentally flat. During that aforesaid period, China launched 150 warships. They person 250 times the vessel cap- gathering capableness we do. This was america successful World War II, and present the tables person been turned. We correspond benignant of 1/10 of 1% of planetary shipping- vessel gathering capability. They've got implicit half. So if we're going to hole that, somebody's got to get disconnected the dime.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So past successful that context, is it worthy to walk arsenic overmuch arsenic $45 cardinal connected a subject parade connected June the 14th, which happens to beryllium the President's birthday?
SEC. GATES: Well, I'll permission that up to- up to the gurus successful Washington. In my career, we had 1 subject parade successful Washington, and that was aft the Gulf War, and I don't- and I deliberation we had to bash immoderate repair enactment connected the streets successful D.C. aft that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You served successful nationalist work for astir 50 years. What is your proposal to graduates who are looking astatine the administration's connection that the backstage assemblage is much productive than the nationalist one, and erstwhile they look astatine each the cuts that are happening to national agencies? Is it worthy it to spell into nationalist service?
SEC. GATES: Well, I wholly judge it's worthy it to spell into nationalist service. There are fewer things you tin bash that are much gratifying and much satisfying, and erstwhile you look back, being capable to accidental that possibly you made a quality successful keeping the federation safer oregon the federation amended off. The world is government- government- the American authorities has mostly been an enabler of the American people, successful presumption of education, successful presumption of opportunities and truthful on, and protecting opportunities. People marque authorities work, and you privation the champion radical you tin get successful those jobs. For each the rhetoric, the American civilian work is the astir honorable and businesslike anyplace successful the world, and has been for a precise agelong time. Does that mean it can't beryllium improved? Absolutely not. Every enactment needs to beryllium reformed and improved, but these young radical and their dedication and their- their possession of skills that older radical don't have, information analytics and truthful on, they're important to the aboriginal of these agencies. And- and- and they shouldn't beryllium daunted. We've been done atrocious times before. I was- I joined CIA astatine the tallness of Vietnam. Those were beauteous unsmooth days. 1968 was arsenic atrocious a twelvemonth arsenic the United States possibly has had since the Civil War, internally, and with heavy divisions and- and distrust of government. And judge me, distrust of authorities didn't statesman recently, it began with Watergate and Vietnam. And truthful young radical request to recognize determination are large opportunities to serve, and- and I would argue, if you're unhappy astir things astatine the national level, spell into section authorities oregon authorities government. There are tons of antithetic places wherever you tin serve. It doesn't person to beryllium astatine CIA oregon the State Department. It could be- it tin beryllium successful a section NGO of immoderate kind, oregon a charity. There are tons of ways to bash nationalist service, and- and young radical who consciousness motivated to bash that, this assemblage has a batch of them. Texas A&M, wherever I was president, has the George H.W. Bush School of Government and Public Service. Lots of universities person these schools, and they've got a batch of kids who are anxious to beryllium adjuvant and assistance marque the state better. My- my presumption is they ought to spell for it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You talked astir nonaccomplishment of confidence. Wall Street Journal's Peggy Noonan precocious wrote astir the breached windows mentation successful instrumentality enforcement, wherever you spell aft the tiny crimes to dissuade bigger ones. But she was arguing, basically, we request to use that successful authorities close now. Are you acrophobic that adjacent the quality of corruption, overseas power peddling, wears distant astatine that, and that perhaps, arsenic she calls for successful this piece, that our parties, the Republican and Democratic Parties, request to beryllium a small spot much honorable and explicit successful policing themselves?
SEC. GATES: Well, I deliberation so, absolutely. I mean, you can't adjacent get authorities connected the elevation astir insider trading. And truthful I deliberation appearances bash matter. And you know, I mean, I retrieve however strict the rules were erstwhile I was successful government. If I- if I got a acquisition erstwhile I was traveling from a overseas government, if it was valued astatine implicit $300 and I wanted it, I had to wage for it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Including a Boeing level from a Gulf country? Over $300. All right, we are retired of time. We've covered a lot. There's much to speech about, but I volition permission it there, Mr. Secretary.
SEC. GATES: Okay. Thank you Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you.
- In:
- Politics
English (US) ·