5 hours ago
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On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Ed O'Keefe:
- Secretary of State Marco Rubio
- Sen. Chris Van Hollen, Democrat of Maryland
- Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates
- Bridget Brink, erstwhile U.S. ambassador to Ukraine
- Ret. Gen. Stanley McChrystal
Click here to browse afloat transcripts from 2025 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan successful Washington.
And this week connected Face the Nation: President Trump is backmost from the Middle East and facing caller headwinds connected the home front, particularly connected the system and moving with Congress to money his agenda.
The president's whirlwind, deal-seeking travel to immoderate of the moneyed parts of the Middle East whitethorn beryllium over, but his efforts pushing for cease-fire deals successful some Gaza and Ukraine are stepping up, arsenic the warring successful some conflicts intensifies. We volition talk with Secretary of State Marco Rubio exclusively.
Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen volition preview the combat up successful Congress implicit a spending package.
And we volition get the satellite presumption from erstwhile Defense Secretary Robert Gates, positive erstwhile U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Bridget Brink and retired Army General Stanley McChrystal.
It's each conscionable up connected Face the Nation.
Good morning, and invited to Face the Nation.
The president is backmost and facing immoderate caller challenges connected the home front, disarray successful his enactment erstwhile it comes to statement connected fund priorities, a downgrading successful our recognition rating, and warnings of rising costs to consumers successful airy of his tariffs.
But we statesman connected the planetary beforehand with Secretary of State Marco Rubio. We spoke to him Saturday portion helium was visiting Rome for Pope Leo XIV's inaugural wide and asked astir the result of the archetypal talks betwixt Russia and Ukraine successful astir 3 years. Those took spot Friday successful Turkey.
Vladimir Putin skipped the gathering that helium himself had projected and alternatively sent representatives. Ukraine's apical diplomat described it arsenic an effort by Russia to bargain clip and imitate a bid process.
(Begin VT)
MARCO RUBIO (U.S. Secretary of State): They were not a implicit discarded of time.
For example, determination were 1,000 prisoners that are going to beryllium exchanged. And that, from a humanitarian standpoint, is precise positive. He explained to maine that they are going to beryllium preparing a papers outlining their requirements for a cease-fire that would past pb to broader negotiations.
So, obviously, the Ukrainian broadside is going to beryllium moving connected their ain proposal. And, hopefully, that volition beryllium forthcoming soon.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You've said repeatedly it's conscionable a substance of days, though, successful presumption of the waning patience that the U.S. has for this diplomacy to succeed.
So are – are they conscionable tapping you along, arsenic President Trump has said? Are they conscionable seeking to proceed to speech to bargain time?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Are they tapping america along? Well, that's what we're trying to find out. We'll find retired beauteous soon.
They met past – yesterday oregon the time earlier successful Turkey. From that, they agreed they're going to speech insubstantial connected ideas that get to a cease-fire. If those papers person ideas connected them that are realistic and rational, past I deliberation we cognize we've made progress. If those papers, connected the different hand, person requirements successful them that we cognize are unrealistic, past we'll person a antithetic assessment.
On the 1 hand, we're trying to execute bid and extremity a precise bloody, costly and destructive war. So there's immoderate constituent of patience that is required. On the different hand, we don't person clip to waste. So we don't privation to beryllium progressive successful this process of conscionable endless talks. There has to beryllium immoderate progress, immoderate question forward.
Ultimately, 1 of the things that could assistance interruption this logjam, possibly the lone happening that can, is simply a nonstop – nonstop speech betwixt President Trump and Vladimir Putin. And he's already openly expressed a tendency and a content that that needs to happen. And – and, hopefully, that'll beryllium worked retired soon arsenic well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're readying connected that?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, I don't cognize if – we're – we surely made the offer. The president's made that connection already publicly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: The mechanics of mounting that benignant of gathering up would necessitate a small spot of work, truthful I can't accidental that's being planned arsenic we talk successful presumption of picking a tract and a date.
But the president wants to bash it. He wants to bash it arsenic soon arsenic – arsenic feasible. I deliberation the Russian broadside has besides expressed a willingness to bash it. And truthful present it's conscionable a question of bringing them – bringing everyone unneurotic and figuring retired wherever and when.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your Senate colleague, erstwhile legislature workfellow Lindsey Graham was adjacent to you successful that gathering with the Ukrainian overseas minister. He has a veto-proof bulk connected this measure to enactment sanctions connected Russia.
How rapidly bash you privation the enactment for much sanctions connected Russia? Or are you asking him to wait?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: No, we're not.
Look, the Senate is going to act, ultimately. I mean, I think, successful the past, we've asked them to springiness america a small clip to spot if we tin marque immoderate advancement connected our talks.
But we've besides been beauteous wide with the Russian broadside for weeks now, going backmost six oregon 7 weeks. We've been communicating to the Russian broadside that this effort was – was being undertaken, that we anticipated that, erstwhile each was said and done, it would person adjacent to 80 co-sponsors successful the Senate, and I ideate a comparable percent of enactment successful the House, that that was an effort we couldn't halt and don't control.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I privation to determination connected to different portion of the world.
You've been precise progressive successful the administration's efforts to ace down connected this Venezuelan pack TDA that has been designated arsenic a panic radical by the U.S.
Do you judge the quality community's appraisal that the Venezuelan pack is not a proxy unit of the Maduro government? That was the National Intelligence Council assessment.
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Yes, that's their assessment. They're wrong.
One of the warnings retired determination by the FBI is not simply that Tren de Aragua are – are a violent organization, but 1 that has already been operationalized to execution a – to execution a – an – an absorption subordinate successful different country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that's a antithetic happening than being a proxy unit controlled by the Maduro government. Part of this is astatine the bosom of the ineligible arguments the medication is having implicit its quality to proceed to deport suspected pack members.
That's wherefore this appraisal is truthful key. You wholly cull that quality assemblage finding?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: They're – they're – yes, I hold 100 percent with the FBI's finding.
This is simply a situation pack that the Venezuelan authorities has actively encouraged to permission the country, a situation pack that successful immoderate cases they've been successful practice with. And, by the way, Tren de Aragua members that person been returned to Venezuela connected immoderate of these planes that person gone backmost person been greeted similar heroes astatine the airport.
There's nary uncertainty successful our caput and successful my caput and successful the FBI's appraisal that this is simply a radical that the authorities successful Venezuela uses, not conscionable to effort to destabilize the United States, but to task power, similar they did by murdering a subordinate of the absorption successful Chile.
MARGARET BRENNAN: South Africa's president is traveling to the United States this week to conscionable with President Trump. The medication has prioritized bringing immoderate achromatic South Africans, Afrikaners, to the United States, contempt the accrued restrictions connected refugees.
President Trump claims there's a genocide nether mode successful South Africa. That's a ineligible determination. The State Department would marque it. Are you trying to find that now?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: I would find that these radical are having their properties taken from them. You tin – they tin telephone it immoderate they want, but these are radical that, connected the ground of their race, are having their properties taken distant from them, and their lives being threatened and successful immoderate cases killed.
These are radical that applied and made these claims successful their applications and question to travel to the United States successful hunt of – of refuge. I – we've often been lectured by radical each implicit the spot astir however the United States needs to proceed to beryllium a beacon for those who are oppressed abroad.
Well, here's an illustration wherever we're doing that. So I don't recognize wherefore radical are criticizing it. I deliberation radical should beryllium celebrating it, and I deliberation radical should beryllium supporting it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, is determination grounds of a genocide that you have?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: If, successful fact, arsenic galore claim, they are successful favour – I deliberation there's evidence, absolutely, that radical person been murdered, that radical person been forcibly removed from their properties, some by the authorities successful immoderate cases due to the fact that of a instrumentality they passed, but besides due to the fact that of autarkic groups encouraged by governmental parties wrong of South – wrong of South Africa.
So, listen, to determination present from half-a-world distant and permission down the lone homeland you've ever known, that's not thing radical bash lightly. These radical are doing it for a reason. So we invited them to the United States, and I deliberation determination whitethorn beryllium much coming soon.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president says helium wants to extremity wars, but Israel's premier curate has said helium is expanding this crushed cognition wrong of Gaza. The IDF says it's to prehend strategical areas. Does the U.S. afloat enactment expanding this war?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: We grow the demolition of Hamas, the ending of Hamas. We enactment a aboriginal for the radical of Gaza that is escaped of Hamas and afloat of opportunity. That's what we support.
And this is simply a radical that came crossed connected October 7 and carried retired 1 of the astir vile bid of attacks, kidnappings, rapes, murders and hostage- taking that we've ever seen. That's what we support.
Now, that said, we besides enactment an extremity of the conflict, a cease-fire. We don't privation radical evidently suffering arsenic they have, and we blasted Hamas for that, but, nonetheless, they're suffering. And truthful we are actively engaged. Even arsenic I talk to you now, we are actively engaged successful trying to fig retired if determination is simply a mode to get much hostages retired done immoderate cease-fire-type mechanism.
Ambassador Witkoff is moving connected that connected an hourly basis. It's thing we're each precise focused connected and proceed to beryllium precise supportive of. And I anticipation we'll person bully quality soon successful that regard, but I deliberation immoderate impediments remain.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you asking Israel to dilatory down this subject push?
And the Qatari premier curate told FOX News that determination was a woody being enactment unneurotic for each hostages oregon galore hostages to beryllium released aft Edan Alexander, that American-Israeli, was released recently, but past the Israeli subject bombed a hospital, sidesplitting 70 civilians, and everything went sideways.
Is that your knowing of what happened?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, I would accidental that…
MARGARET BRENNAN: It was this deficiency of attraction of collateral damage?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: No, I – the mode I would qualify it is that this warfare could extremity immediately. And Israel's made that clear. It tin extremity instantly if Hamas surrenders and gives up their weapons and demilitarizes and releases each the hostages, including the deceased ones.
If they did that, this struggle would end. That's been existent from the precise beginning. It's been existent for months now. They're the ones that person chosen not to judge that offer.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You person said that Iran is, successful your view, a threshold atomic state, and we're astatine a captious moment.
The U.S. and Iran are talking again. Can you clarify what the U.S. argumentation is here? Is the bottommost enactment that Iran cannot enrich immoderate uranium, adjacent if it is astatine debased levels for civilian purposes? Do they request to afloat dismantle the program?
SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO: Well, look, if you're capable to enrich astatine immoderate level, you present are fundamentally capable to enrich astatine weapons people precise quickly. I mean, that's conscionable a cardinal fact, and everyone knows it, and that was the occupation with the Obama deal.
But the extremity end present is simple. Iran tin ne'er person a atomic weapon. And the president's penchant – due to the fact that helium doesn't similar war, the president's penchant is to execute that done a peaceful negotiation.
He's a builder, not a bomber. That's what helium views himself as, and that's what helium is. He's a president that wants peace, and truthful he's offered that route. And that's 1 we anticipation the Iranians volition take.
But he's been precise clear. Iran is ne'er going to person the capability. They're ne'er going to person a atomic weapon. It's not going to happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, I cognize you person a engaged schedule. Thank you for your clip this morning.
The diplomatic discussions connected the Ukraine warfare volition proceed tomorrow, erstwhile President Trump is scheduled to talk with Vladimir Putin and past Ukrainian President Zelenskyy.
As Secretary Rubio mentioned, U.S. negotiators are besides hard astatine enactment trying to get a cease-fire successful Gaza.
Our Debora Patta reports connected the concern there.
(Begin VT)
DEBORA PATTA: Since Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stepped up the warfare successful Gaza this past week, adjacent to 500 Palestinians person been killed, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.
(voice-over): For Palestinians, it is much of what they person endured with small respite for implicit 19 months, relentless bombing successful areas mostly reduced to rubble, a decease toll that has seen dozens killed astir each time this week, Israeli orders to evacuate, forcing Palestinians to battalion up and determination erstwhile again with nary thought wherever they are heading to.
More than two-thirds of Gaza has been declared a subject no-go zone. The remainder is not overmuch safer. Israel has imposed a full assistance blockade. For much than 75 days, it has stopped each nutrient and medicine from entering the territory, saying it is to unit Hamas to manus implicit the remaining hostages.
Hunger is truthful rife that famine is erstwhile again stalking Gaza, according to the World Food Program's Antoine Renard, who's conscionable returned from there.
ANTOINE RENARD (World Food Program): You person astir an estimated 14,000 children that are present facing what we telephone terrible acute malnutrition.
DEBORA PATTA: They could dice without intervention.
ANTOINE RENARD: But erstwhile famine is on, it's already excessively late. That volition beryllium a nonaccomplishment of each the planetary community.
(GIRL CRYING)
DEBORA PATTA: Doctors person told america they are hardly capable to dainty starving children, arsenic they are moving retired of supplies due to the fact that of the blockade.
A planetary hunger show says already half-a-million are connected the brink of starvation and a cardinal much person hardly capable nutrient to survive.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's Debora Patta reporting from Israel.
Face the Nation volition beryllium backmost successful 1 minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we are backmost present with Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen.
Good morning, and bully to person you here.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-Maryland): Good to beryllium here, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We conscionable showed immoderate reporting from our workfellow Debora Patta with unthinkable pictures from our shooter wrong of Gaza, Marwan.
It's hard to look astatine pictures of children successful that level of starvation. You person said: "The Israeli authorities is starving civilians and the U.S. is complicit successful the gross usurpation of planetary law."
The U.N. is begging to spell in. The Israeli authorities says they don't privation to enactment with the U.N. here. They privation to enactment with this Gaza humanitarian instauration that's conscionable being acceptable up.
What bash you cognize astir this? Should determination beryllium U.S. enactment for it?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: So, Margaret, you're right. It's precise hard to look astatine those pictures. And the United States has been complicit. President Trump was successful the portion and truly did nothing, said virtually thing astir what's happening successful Gaza, which is connected fire.
We're successful the 77th time of a afloat blockade. Two cardinal Palestinians are starving. This is corporate punishment that is intelligibly amerciable nether planetary law. And this different thought that's been cooked up either by the Israelis oregon by the Trump medication is intelligibly not acceptable for intent erstwhile it comes to trying to code this burgeoning famine. And each it volition bash is further let nutrient to beryllium utilized arsenic a limb of war.
So, I anticipation the United States volition backmost disconnected this plan. None of the credible planetary organizations person said that they volition participate, due to the fact that it violates planetary norms successful however it's structured. And truthful I anticipation the United States volition backmost disconnected and instantly telephone contiguous to let the trucks close present that person nutrient to beryllium capable to travel supply nutrient to starving people.
These are provided by planetary assistance organizations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is determination thing that the United States tin bash successful presumption of leverage? You were – you person been bipartisan successful your criticism. You said that what happened successful Gaza is simply a achromatic stain connected Joe Biden's bequest arsenic president. You are criticizing the existent medication for not doing much here.
What leverage is there? I mean, is what you're saying falling connected immoderate ears that privation to listen?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, I person had conversations with immoderate radical successful the Trump medication and made wide that they request to bash more.
One of the precise evident things they could bash is, President Trump contiguous could telephone upon the Netanyahu authorities to fto assistance in. I mean, the president acknowledged determination are radical starving successful Gaza the different day. He said so. But wherefore hasn't helium called connected Netanyahu to fto the assistance in?
Let's conscionable commencement with that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we volition travel the diplomacy that Steve Witkoff is leading.
I privation to inquire you astir what's happening present astatine home. The treasury caput this greeting is dismissing the quality that Moody's recognition standing bureau downgraded America's credit. It's similar the archetypal clip since 1917. Now each 3 agencies person said the U.S. fiscal concern is unsustainable.
Moody's specifically said the upcoming bills and spending reductions won't marque a difference. You're an appropriator. You are successful a presumption of powerfulness here. What is going to hap with Capitol Hill and the president's agenda? Is it going to beryllium overmuch of a fight? Is determination going to beryllium anyone pushing backmost due to the fact that of this?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Oh, yes, Margaret, what you're seeing is, the Republican plan, the Trump program is fundamentally to springiness these immense taxation cuts to precise affluent radical and corporations, astatine the disbursal of everybody else.
They're going to chopped Medicaid. They're going to chopped nutrient and nutrition programs. But adjacent aft those cuts…
MARGARET BRENNAN: They accidental they're not, arsenic you know.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: But adjacent – well, it's successful their existent House bill. They person $700 cardinal successful Medicaid cuts and $300 cardinal successful nutrient and nutrition programs successful the House measure now. I mean, they tin ever alteration it.
But, adjacent aft that, they're going to – this volition effect successful a immense spike successful the nationalist debt. And truthful that's wherefore Moody's is informing radical that we're going down this road. And it volition person a nonstop harmful interaction connected each American, due to the fact that what it volition bash is thrust up involvement rates, right?
Just similar the Trump across-the-board tariffs are raising prices, truthful volition these large deficits and debts they incur.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Moody's besides says, though, that this has been cumulative, which means Democrats carnivore immoderate work for the concern we find ourselves successful now.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: But conscionable connected that point…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: … I person enactment guardant a assortment of plans to adjacent taxation loopholes for the precise affluent to statesman to code the shortage problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Speaking of responsibility, I'm definite you person been tracking each the headlines and the speech astir President Biden and what happened with that debriefing of him by the peculiar counsel Hur during that Justice Department probe of his mishandling of classified information.
No charges were brought, but the audio of that was obtained by Axios. In it, you perceive the president halting astatine times. Remember, Hur was the 1 who said President Biden was a sympathetic, well-meaning, aged antheral with a mediocre memory.
And Democrats truly pushed backmost astatine the clip astatine that, saying that sounded precise political. In hindsight, bash you deliberation Democrats were excessively consenting to look the different way?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, hindsight is 20/20. We cognize a batch much present than we knew then.
I tin conscionable say, personally, I had constricted interactions with President Biden astatine the time. He came to the Key Bridge successful Maryland erstwhile it collapsed, and we had a bully conversation. So hindsight is 20/20. Obviously, if we could redo this portion and play it implicit again, we would bash things differently.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you consciousness similar you person to explicate and support that now? I mean, determination was a portion successful "The Washington Post" from Dan Balz who said Democrats are either – were either covering up past oregon covering their behinds now.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: No.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did…
(CROSSTALK)
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, look, I mean, I deliberation we tin admit that this was a – radical overlooked a superior occupation oregon were conscionable not alert of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Willingly?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, I don't – I tin lone talk for myself.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I didn't – I wasn't alert of this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: But we are focused connected the aboriginal close now.
I mean, close now, we person the Republican taxation plan, which is simply a giveaway to the rich. We person – we didn't speech astir it, but Donald Trump's sojourn to the Middle East, my presumption is, the wide communicative present was selling retired U.S. nationalist interests for the backstage summation of his household business.
He fundamentally gave distant the crown jewels of American A.I. and semiconductor exertion to the Gulf…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: … successful exchange, successful exchange, it looks like, for a $2 cardinal concern successful the Trump household stablecoin venture.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But – different topic, but, connected this point, I perceive you privation to look forward. I bash too. But don't Democrats person to reckon with this and accidental to the nationalist that – the reply to that question, you know?
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I deliberation we person each acknowledged that, if we had the payment of hindsight, we would person done things differently. I don't cognize if each of america have. I person recognized that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: But, astatine this point, it seems to maine the American radical are overmuch much funny successful the speech arsenic to the aboriginal of our country…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: … and the harm that Elon Musk and Donald Trump are doing each day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Van Hollen, convey you for your clip today.
SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Good to beryllium with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We volition beryllium backmost successful a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Last week, we traveled to Williamsburg, Virginia, to talk with Robert Gates, the erstwhile defence caput and CIA Director, who present serves arsenic chancellor of William & Mary.
Before retiring from nationalist service, Gates served nether 8 antithetic presidents. And we ever bask his position connected the authorities of the world.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: When we look astir the satellite close now, determination are a batch of blistery spots, not conscionable this onshore warfare successful Ukraine successful the mediate of Europe. You person rocket attacks betwixt 2 atomic powers, India and Pakistan.
You person China's accrued aggression successful Asia, the ongoing Israeli war, arsenic we talked about. I reread this effort that you wrote 2 years ago, and you said: "The U.S. confronts graver threats to its information than it ever has."
Two years later, what does the playing tract look similar to you?
ROBERT GATES (Former U.S. Secretary of Defense): I deliberation that, if anything, the peril has gotten greater, simply due to the fact that some Russia and, particularly China person importantly accrued their arsenals and their subject power.
And particularly, arsenic I accidental successful the lawsuit of China, China has been overmuch much assertive successful the Taiwan Strait and successful the South China Sea than they were 2 years ago. I deliberation they enactment themselves successful a position, if they chose to bash so, to enactment fundamentally a stranglehold astir Taiwan successful presumption of shipping and truthful on.
And, you know, what we've ne'er faced earlier is large, assertive atomic powers, some successful Europe and successful Asia, collaborating. And what we are facing today, we've ne'er faced arsenic a country, is simply a state that's astir arsenic affluent arsenic we are that is technologically precocious competing with america successful galore areas of technology, exertion advances, and – and 1 that has unanswered ambitions, unfulfilled ambitions…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're talking astir China.
ROBERT GATES: … successful the neighborhood, each China. And so, you know, China is the bigger threat, by far, but doesn't negate the 1,500 atomic weapons that the Russians person either.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we volition beryllium close backmost with much from our speech from erstwhile Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome backmost to FACE THE NATION.
We besides talked to erstwhile Secretary of Defense Robert Gates astir the president's travel to the Middle East and more.
(BEGIN VT)
ROBERT GATES: The Middle East whitethorn beryllium 1 spot wherever determination are immoderate existent opportunities and – and – and possibilities. It's – it's a spot to bash concern for China, for the United States, for everybody else.
The actions of Israel station the October 7th massacre by Hamas has truly changed the strategical equation successful the Middle East due to the fact that Iran has been dramatically weakened. Iran's successful a precise anemic spot now. And if determination is an accidental to bash a woody connected nuclear, this is it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You didn't truly similar the Obama epoch atomic woody with Iran. Now, President Trump is trying thing that whitethorn beryllium somewhat similar. What bash you deliberation has to beryllium successful it for it to truly beryllium a success?
ROBERT GATES: Iran truly has to halt their atomic program. They person to halt their enrichment entirely. And they person to springiness up –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Entirely?
ROBERT GATES: Entirely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Not conscionable highly enriched? All enriched?
ROBERT GATES: Entirely. And – and if they privation to person a civilian atomic program, they request to import the uranium, the enriched uranium, to bash that. But they request to get escaped of the stockpile.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Would you reason an Israeli onslaught with U.S. enactment connected Iran's atomic program?
ROBERT GATES: The occupation that I've had with a onslaught connected the Iranian atomic programme is that it buys you a twelvemonth oregon two. You're not going to beryllium capable to (INAUDIBLE). Short of – arsenic agelong arsenic you're utilizing accepted weapons, you cannot get astatine the precise profoundly buried parts of the Iranian atomic program.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're starting to spot immoderate points of friction with the Trump medication and the Netanyahu authorities successful particular. Are – are we astatine the constituent present wherever President Trump needs to publically beryllium wide that the warfare successful Gaza has to extremity and withhold U.S. enactment if it doesn't?
ROBERT GATES: I deliberation it would beryllium a precise dense governmental assistance for the president to accidental he's going to chopped disconnected subject supplies to Israel unless they halt successful Gaza. I deliberation helium tin accidental a batch of things successful presumption of putting unit connected Netanyahu to halt the war. He tin enactment guardant proposals connected however humanitarian assistance and different things mightiness – mightiness spell forward.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is determination a outgo to this ongoing enactment of specified a bloody war, fixed the projections from U.S. quality astir the semipermanent recruitment of – among panic groups astir the satellite due to the fact that of the devastation?
ROBERT GATES: I deliberation determination is simply a cost. I deliberation it does supply a ground for radicalization successful the region. But it is absorbing to maine that you're not proceeding overmuch retired of the Gulf Arabs and – and others successful presumption of decrying the ongoing operations and truthful on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary of State Rubio said helium believes that determination won't beryllium a wide work connected Vladimir Putin's intentions until helium sits down with President Donald Trump. You've met Putin before. Does it truly instrumentality a look to look to justice Putin's intentions?
ROBERT GATES: I'm not definite adjacent successful a look to look that you tin justice Putin's intentions. My – my ain presumption is, Putin feels that helium has a destiny to recreate the Russian empire. Putin hasn't fixed up connected immoderate of his archetypal goals successful Ukraine. He's going to importune connected occupying each 4 of the eastbound provinces of the Donbas, perpetual designation of Russian ownership of Crimea, a pro-Russian authorities successful Kyiv, and a – a Ukrainian subject that looks a batch similar an enhanced constabulary force. He wants Ukraine fundamentally to beryllium a lawsuit authorities of Russia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Would you counsel President Trump not to instrumentality that look to face, adjacent if Vladimir Putin was consenting to bash it?
ROBERT GATES: I would accidental you request to fig retired immoderate leverage that you person going into this gathering with Putin. What tin you bash that puts much unit to carnivore connected Putin, to marque him judge his – his interests are served by, not conscionable a ceasefire, but a – fundamentally astatine slightest freezing things successful place.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How sustainable bash you deliberation it is for the caput of authorities to besides beryllium the nationalist information advisor, the acting archivist and the acting manager of USAID?
ROBERT GATES: It's interesting. A batch of radical constituent to the precedent erstwhile Henry Kissinger was caput of authorities and nationalist information advisor from 1973 to 1975. I was astatine the NSC during astir of that period. And each I tin archer you is, Henry Kessinger was an absentee landlord. I mean what made it enactment successful that clip was that Henry had a precise experienced and omniscient lawman successful General Brent Scowcroft. And Scowcroft fundamentally ran the NSC time to day. And Henry would look present and then. But – but chiefly did his caput of authorities job.
So, whether oregon not this volition work, I think, depends connected whether the caput of authorities has a lawman astatine the NSC who is precise experienced, knows the interior bureau and – and – and is respected and trusted by the president.
MARGARET BRENNAN: With this president, I've heard from officials, which is helium does not spot National Security Council due to the fact that of the past with the archetypal impeachment. So, helium is fishy of a batch of radical who beryllium there. What's the information of that erstwhile you don't spot the radical who are briefing you connected immoderate of the astir delicate nationalist information issues, oregon advising you?
ROBERT GATES: I deliberation it's important to – for radical to remember, the NSC is the president's idiosyncratic overseas argumentation staff. So, I deliberation if – if radical connected the NSC – and I don't attraction whether they travel from the State Department oregon CIA oregon the subject oregon anyplace else, oregon from the outside. On that staff, if you can't beryllium loyal to the president, past you should leave.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What bash you mean loyal?
ROBERT GATES: I mean beryllium consenting – clasp his policies and bash what you tin to instrumentality those policies and to guarantee that the different agencies are implementing the president's policies. And erstwhile the clip comes, if the clip comes that you disagree with those policies, then, it seems to me, it's incumbent connected you to instrumentality to your bureau oregon to permission the government.
I deliberation helium has a close to expect loyal. And my – what I – my enactment – my enactment erstwhile I was astatine the NSC was, beryllium loyal oregon beryllium gone.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Including erstwhile it means having a antithetic presumption of the past election? Or having household members who enactment successful the Justice Department? I mean determination are immoderate antithetic definitions of loyalty.
ROBERT GATES: Absolutely. If you clasp views that are unacceptable to the president connected things similar that, similar the predetermination and truthful on, past you astir apt don't judge successful his NSC staff. Maybe you beryllium astatine the State Department oregon astatine CIA oregon someplace, but you don't beryllium wrong the White House complex.
I deliberation you request to springiness the president your honorable views connected things, connected the subjects that you're successful complaint of. And it whitethorn beryllium unwelcome to him. But helium needs to perceive antithetic perspectives and antithetic points of view. So, being loyal doesn't mean not – it doesn't mean pulling your punches successful presumption of the argumentation debate. But erstwhile the president's made a decision, past you person to salute.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our afloat interrogation with Secretary Gates is connected our website, our YouTube transmission arsenic well.
We'll beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Last period Ambassador Bridget Brink resigned from her station arsenic America's apical diplomat to Ukraine. She was the archetypal American pistillate ambassador successful a warfare zone.
For much we're joined present by Ambassador Brink.
Ambassador, bully to person you here.
BRIDGET BRINK (Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine): Hi, Margaret. Thanks truthful overmuch for having maine on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You served this state for truthful galore decades. What happened that made you say, I can't instrumentality it?
BRIDGET BRINK: Well, possibly fto maine springiness you a small context. What I saw successful Ukraine was horrifying. For 3 years, Russia launched missiles and drones astatine men, women and children sleeping successful their homes, tried to instrumentality down the vigor grid for millions of Ukrainians to instrumentality retired the power, vigor and airy successful the mediate of winter, and committed warfare crimes and atrocities astatine a level we haven't seen since World War II.
I resigned from Ukraine and besides from the overseas work due to the fact that the argumentation since the opening of the medication was to enactment unit connected the victim, Ukraine, alternatively than connected the aggressor, Russia. I afloat hold that the warfare needs to end, but I judge that bid astatine immoderate terms is not bid astatine all. It's appeasement. And arsenic we cognize from history, appeasement lone leads to much war.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And to beryllium clear, you are a vocation diplomat. So, that means you service careless of who is the president of the United States and what enactment they travel from. And, successful fact, erstwhile you tried to permission station successful January, Secretary Rubio asked you to enactment connected successful Kyiv, arsenic I recognize it. You were determination for a fig of months until April.
What specifically with this argumentation is simply a occupation for you? Because you did – you worked astatine station nether the Trump administration. Was determination a trigger that made you say, we're getting it truthful wrong?
BRIDGET BRINK: Well, I would accidental it wasn't a hasty, rash decision. It was 1 that I took implicit the archetypal 3 months of the administration. But the archetypal motion was the Oval Office meeting.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In February?
BRIDGET BRINK: In February.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Between President Trump and President Zelenskyy?
BRIDGET BRINK: Yes. Where I saw that our attack is to enactment unit connected Ukraine and not unit connected Russia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president and this administration's policies, you person heard Secretary Rubio say, is conscionable to effort to get the warring to stop. Do you spot that America has leverage here?
BRIDGET BRINK: Yes, of course, we person leverage.
MARGARET BRENNAN: From – for Russia?
BRIDGET BRINK: Yes, of course, we do. I mean we're the – the person and – of the escaped world.
I think, let's conscionable beryllium clear, Russia and Putin person invaded a sovereign, independent, antiauthoritarian state successful the bosom of Europe with the assistance of North Korea, Iran and China. This is fundamentally against U.S. interests. Europe is our largest trading partner, is liable for 16 cardinal jobs connected some continents. And having this war, oregon immoderate festering, unresolved war, connected the margins of Europe, is precise atrocious for the United States.
So, what bash we request to bash arsenic the United States? We request to put, unneurotic with partners and allies, unit connected Russia to extremity the war.
And determination are galore ways to bash this. We tin enactment further sanctions successful the vigor sector, successful the banking sector. Russia's not arsenic beardown arsenic immoderate radical accidental oregon immoderate radical think. The system is hurting. They person 20 percent involvement rates, 21 percent involvement rates, 10 percent inflation. And so, close present is the clip to summation the unit connected Russia, to bring Putin to the table, not alteration it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we cognize that President Trump and President Putin person plans to talk connected Monday. When you were inactive successful Kyiv, President Zelenskyy called retired the U.S. embassy for what helium called a disappointingly anemic absorption from America pursuing a rocket onslaught that killed tiny children. He said, "you indispensable not beryllium acrophobic to telephone things by their names, and the U.S. is acrophobic to adjacent accidental the connection Russian erstwhile speaking astir the rocket that murdered children."
Do you consciousness American officials are being censored from saying things frankly and honestly?
BRIDGET BRINK: I mean, our occupation arsenic diplomats is to bespeak and correspond the argumentation of the – the president and the administration. That's our job. That's – that's what we bash arsenic professionals. And having worked for 5 antithetic presidents, that requires reflecting that argumentation that's made constitutionally by the president.
So, to me, the existent question is, however are we going to assistance to extremity this warfare successful a mode that's successful the involvement of the United States? And to bash that, it can't beryllium bid astatine immoderate price. It has to beryllium a bid that does things that beforehand our ain interest. And those are truly simple. It's however to support Ukraine free, however to deter Russia and however to nonstop the close awesome to China.
And this is what we should beryllium doing. And each measurement that we marque successful diplomacy I deliberation should effort to assistance execute this goal.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And telephone things what they are.
BRIDGET BRINK: It's important for us, arsenic the person of the escaped world, again to beryllium wide and accurate. And also, I think, it's an important infinitesimal successful history. We've seen the devastation that happens erstwhile we appease aggressors. And we bash not privation to bash that again. So, my beardown proposal successful presumption of however to woody with Putin and Russia is not to springiness a azygous gathering oregon concession oregon legitimacy until Putin agrees to an unconditional ceasefire that's verifiable and moves guardant toward a conscionable and lasting peace. On that basis, I tin spot a speech and – and diplomacy that tin execute our interests.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you precise much, Ambassador Brink, for sharing your insights with us.
BRIDGET BRINK: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll beryllium backmost successful a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're joined present by retired General Stanley McCrystal, whose caller publication is "On Character: Choices that Define a Life."
Good greeting to you.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL (Retired, CEO And Chairman, McChrystal Group): Thanks for having me, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you constitute that "character is simply a prime built upon our profoundly held beliefs." It sounds similar you truly deliberation there's a deficiency of it these days. We surely spot there's a nonaccomplishment of spot successful galore of our country's institutions, whether it's the national government, journalism, the courts.
How bash you picture our nationalist quality close present and the leaders we have?
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Yes, I deliberation it's confused. If you look astatine polling, arsenic you've conscionable referred to the deficiency of trust, like, 22 percent of Americans a twelvemonth agone had spot successful the U.S. government. Only 34 percent had spot successful different Americans. So, I deliberation we each benignant of intuitively cognize we person a existent problem.
But what I would reason is, our nationalist leaders are not the origin of the problem. They're the grounds of the problem. The origin is america astatine our idiosyncratic level. Our unwillingness to deliberation astir character, to speech astir quality and to request character.
And I would besides reason that we're besides the cure. There is simply a grounds that we see, and we're distracted by it, each the things that we are disappointed by, radical lying, radical doing things that we find beneath us. As a nation, our quality is our fate. And truthful what I'm trying to bash is person radical to commencement a nationalist speech connected quality with the thought it starts astatine the bottom. Not astatine the top. We request to commencement it down wherever things really happen, connected farms, successful schools. We've conscionable sent retired 240 copies of the publication to assemblage sports coaches, to effort to person them commencement conscionable to speech astir character. And so, that's what I'm passionate about.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, I respect the effort. You know, it's absorbing to look astatine wherever this began. Not pinning it connected a person.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I recognize you're trying to bash that. But is it a grounds of, it's ever been this way, we conscionable person much transparency and frankincense we cognize much astir people's flaws? Why does this look to beryllium gathering arsenic a problem?
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Well, we've ever had a occupation with definite evil successful nine and corruption, deficiency of character. But I deliberation the information that we spot everything truthful overmuch present we normalize it. We commencement to judge things successful celebrities oregon leaders that are frankly things we wouldn't person accepted adjacent a procreation ago. And that's benignant of our problem. We springiness them our likes connected societal media. We walk our wealth with them. We ballot for them. And we cognize amended than that. And truthful I deliberation the work again arcs backmost to us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're not a Democrat oregon a Republican you say.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Though you did endorse Joe Biden and Kamala Harris successful the past elections.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Most retired subject effort to enactment retired of authorities and – and marque an statement that that's crossing the Rubicon successful immoderate ways.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Yes. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why did you?
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Well, of course, you spell backmost to Dwight Eisenhower and Ulysses S. Grant. They really went into politics.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Fair.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: So, determination is immoderate tradition. But that was not my extremity to get into politics. I conscionable felt that we had deed a play successful which we were truthful adrift arsenic a federation successful presumption of character. We were accepting thing that is not arsenic bully arsenic we are susceptible of. So, I made a decision. And I'll beryllium honest, it was tough, due to the fact that there's a batch of pushback from peers and from outsiders that say, you shouldn't get political. But I don't deliberation that saying that America should basal up for its values and for its quality is needfully political.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we had, successful the past, conversations with different guests that question about, what does America basal for and does it matter? There is simply a displacement much towards pragmatism oregon what's successful it for maine connected the nationalist scale. That's precise overmuch successful our authorities close now.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: And I deliberation it's a mistake for the nation. If you deliberation what truly helped the United States successful the modern area, we'll telephone it aft World War II, radical admired American ideas. They admired American democracy. They admired our social, our culture. They didn't similar each portion of it. And they knew that we, arsenic a nation, marque mistakes. But countries and radical wanted to beryllium much similar america than they wanted to beryllium similar the Soviet Union oregon different enemies. And arsenic agelong arsenic we are an illustration that radical privation to be, it gives america bonzer power and power. When it becomes transactional, erstwhile we – erstwhile we go idiosyncratic that conscionable wants thing from them and we're unwilling to beryllium generous, we're unwilling to sacrifice for larger ideals, we suffer immoderate of our motivation lasting and I deliberation immoderate of our nationalist force, our power.
MARGARET BRENNAN: At the Pentagon close present we perceive a batch astir values and civilization benignant of being astatine likelihood with the mission, oregon that's however it's being described, right? Secretary Hegseth has talked a batch astir restoring the warrior ethos. That's portion of his justification for eliminating diverseness programs oregon DEI. Do you deliberation DEI really, quote/unquote, hurts lethality?
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Yes. I americium wholly aligned with Secretary Hegseth connected the thought that we request to support the nation, that the Defense Department needs to beryllium arsenic effectual arsenic it tin be, and that a definite warrior ethos matters. We conscionable specify it differently. In my experience, we thin to recognize that everybody tin contribute. Particularly successful today's modern wars. The thought that everybody has got to look a definite way, got to person biceps of a definite size, there's got to beryllium a male, straight, each these things is not my experience. In the counterterrorist fight, wherever overmuch of my acquisition was, it became a meritocracy. You didn't attraction what idiosyncratic looked similar oregon however aged they were, what their sex was, their intersexual orientation, due to the fact that it was excessively important to get the occupation done. And I would reason now, America needs to harness endowment from each country of our society. Everyone. I would adjacent reason that if – if we went backmost to a draft, we could draught radical with carnal disabilities due to the fact that overmuch of what we do, that's not a artifact to that. And so, I deliberation we request to deliberation about, what bash we request to consciousness the astir effectual equipped forces. And I deliberation that the DEI happening is frankly a distraction. It's not helpful.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In presumption of nationalist character, erstwhile you were commanding forces, the NATO-led ngo successful Afghanistan, ISAF, you cognize precise good that country. The Taliban has since taken over.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We person seen them portion women and girls of adjacent the close to person their dependable heard successful public. You person seen them transportation retired retribution against Afghans who worked with our state and enactment their lives astatine risk. This past week, the Trump medication said Afghanistan is harmless capable for radical surviving present to spell back. They stripped the ineligible protections, the impermanent protected status. They are ending immoderate of the programs that helped to evacuate our American allies there. What bash you deliberation that says astir our quality now?
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: I deliberation it's disappointing. I personally disagree with that decision. But I besides deliberation it sends a message. What astir radical who we inquire to state with america successful the future? That we inquire to spouse with us. They look astatine what happened successful the past. And so, I deliberation our nationalist quality should beryllium bigger than that. And we're susceptible of being bigger than that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: General McChrystal, convey you precise overmuch for sharing your reflections.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL: You're benignant to person me. Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And your book, "On Character: Choices that Define a Life."
We'll beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for america today. Thank you for watching. Until adjacent week. For FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
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