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The pursuing is the transcript of an interrogation with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns and "CBS Evening News" co-anchor John Dickerson that volition aerial connected "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" connected July 6, 2025.
JOHN DICKERSON: So Ken, let's ideate it's July 3, 1776, what is happening successful America?
KEN BURNS: Well, this location is empty. What's happening successful America is that successful Philadelphia, the Second Continental Congress are debating this Declaration of Independence that a committee of 5 has drawn up. They've handed it disconnected to Thomas Jefferson, 1 of the youngest, but who has a large felicity, idiosyncratic said, with connection to draught due to the fact that you've got a beauteous ample geopolitical concern going connected that radical don't needfully admit that we've got the French who are benignant of funny successful possibly helping america due to the fact that they're truthful anti-British. But archetypal of all, you person to accidental that you're a portion and past you person to triumph a conflict which is adjacent harder to travel by. And truthful we are present successful this, you know, the early, aboriginal summertime of 1776 debating, and the adjacent time we'll motion this thing, and we volition go the United States of America. Someone had suggested earlier successful June successful a paper anonymously signed Republicus, that we ought to person a existent name, and suggested it should beryllium the United States of America just, conscionable a fewer weeks earlier it's, it's a beauteous fantastic moment.
JOHN DICKERSON: Was America United though successful 1776 erstwhile they were astir to marque this large step?
KEN BURNS: No, we'd been warring for a twelvemonth and a quarter. Lexington and Concord are as- is, is successful April of '75 there- this is simply a civilian warfare that's going on. More than apt you mightiness beryllium a loyalist. You've lived nether the, you know, the British law monarchy. You know, there's nary amended signifier of authorities connected earth. Why would I hazard thing for this, you know, upstart ideas that person zero accidental of success? And what happens is that this papers that Jefferson principally crafts is simply a papers that is distilling a period of enlightenment reasoning into 1 sentence, the 2nd condemnation of the Declaration, which is, you know, adjacent to I emotion you, I can't deliberation of a amended condemnation successful the English language.
JOHN DICKERSON: America- you telephone the Revolutionary play a civilian war.
KEN BURNS: It is.
JOHN DICKERSON: Was that ever your conception of the–
KEN BURNS: No.
JOHN DICKERSON: How did you travel to deliberation of it that way?
KEN BURNS: I deliberation due to the fact that determination are nary photographs and there's nary newsreels, and they're in, you know, stockings and breeches and powdered wigs. There's a consciousness of region from them. I deliberation we besides are truthful proud, rightfully, of the powerfulness of the large ideas that we we conscionable don't privation to get into the information that it was this bloody civilian war, patriots against loyalists, disaffected people, Native people, enslaved and escaped radical wrong it, overseas powers that are yet engaged successful this. This is simply a large satellite warfare by the end. I deliberation we perhaps, are fearful that those large ideas are diminished, and they're not, successful immoderate way. They're, successful fact, go adjacent much inspiring that they look from the turmoil. You could adjacent look astatine our civilian warfare and say, it's not truly a civilian war, not a batch of civilian deaths, and it's a sectional war, but the revolution, you decidedly bash not privation to beryllium successful New Jersey oregon South Carolina, due to the fact that radical are successful benignant of unfastened revolt. People, determination are guerilla actions. There's small assassinations, taking things retired connected your neighbour who's a loyalist, erstwhile the Patriots are dominant, taking things retired connected your neighbour who's a patriot, erstwhile the British and the Loyalists are ascendant successful a peculiar area. It's really, truly bad.
JOHN DICKERSON: How should we deliberation astir the Declaration of Independence, this play successful America, successful our contiguous day?
KEN BURNS: First of all, I deliberation the American Revolution is the astir important lawsuit since the commencement of Christ successful each of satellite history.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why?
KEN BURNS: I mean, it turned the satellite upside down, which is the cliche. Before this moment, everyone was a subject, fundamentally nether the regularisation of idiosyncratic else. We had created, successful this moment, a precise marque caller happening called a national and this has had almighty effects. It's going to acceptable successful question revolutions for the adjacent 2 positive centuries, each astir the world, each attempting to benignant of springiness a caller look to this thought that each men are created equal, that they're endowed by their Creator with definite unalienable rights, and that's a big, large woody successful satellite history. So what happens present is, I accidental you could, you know, miss the point, and accidental it's a quarrel betwixt Englishmen, but it is the opening of thing perfectly caller successful the world, and that is thing to observe and to recognize too, that it comes retired of truthful overmuch part that's going connected betwixt the states. People successful New Hampshire and Georgia are, they're from antithetic countries. They judge antithetic things. That you could person the divisions of loyalists and patriots. You could person this, each the things that are roiling successful these colonies, and recognize that retired of that, we could inactive fig retired a mode to travel together.
JOHN DICKERSON: Americans deliberation they're beauteous divided close now. They weren't astir arsenic divided arsenic they were during the Revolutionary period.
KEN BURNS: Here's the elemental thing, we're ever divided, truthful it ebbs and flows a small bit, but we're ever person large differences. You know, Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal is not met with cosmopolitan approval. The Civil War kills 750,000 Americans, we think, implicit the contented of slavery. We person our ain revolution. There are tons of periods, the Vietnam period, erstwhile we're truthful peculiarly divided. So I deliberation there's a small spot of chickenhearted little, you know, oh, the entity is falling due to the fact that it's now. Things are ever worse present than they ever were. The only- the crushed wherefore historians, and God knows, I'm an amateur historian, consciousness a benignant of optimism, is due to the fact that there's thing familiar. There's, you know, the Bible says there's thing caller nether the sun, quality quality fundamentally doesn't change, and that's true. What's large astir the Revolution is, for a moment, things actually, determination was thing caller successful the world, and that's the happening that we request to use. That's the leverage we person to bring america backmost to the quality to talk to 1 another, to recognize however you lick your differences, arsenic opposed to the benignant of crockery of choler and distrust that look to be, you know, everyplace now.
JOHN DICKERSON: John Dos Passos said that erstwhile men, successful times of wherever men consciousness speedy soil nether their feet, past is simply a lifeline to the- from the past to the present. What lifeline bash you spot from the Revolutionary period, if we're ever divided, what's the lifeline to the contiguous from the Revolutionary period?
KEN BURNS: That's a fantastic phrase. I deliberation it's manifest successful truthful galore antithetic ways. Obviously, we're the lone country, we cognize precisely erstwhile we were born, and we're the state that's held together, not by language, not by religion, not by adjacent geography, we're held unneurotic by words. And truthful I think, to me, it ever comes backmost to words, and wherefore being here, you statesman to recognize the unthinkable powerfulness and import of those words that we clasp these truths to beryllium aforesaid evident. And you know, John, determination was thing aforesaid evident astir those words. As idiosyncratic said successful an earlier movie we made about, astir Benjamin Franklin, this is the lawyers dodge, right? It's similar there's thing self-evident astir this. But if you accidental it's self-evident, we conscionable similar we, of course, each hold this is true, and past accidental thing that is truthful caller successful the satellite that it is inactive inspiring. I mean, I would usually beryllium location connected July 4 speechmaking to my children the Declaration of Independence, due to the fact that it has truthful overmuch import and truthful overmuch meaning, adjacent today. And I deliberation it doesn't instrumentality arsenic overmuch effort arsenic we deliberation it does to reinvest successful those things that we stock successful common.
JOHN DICKERSON: What's, what are, what is simply a citizen's work now?
KEN BURNS: A citizens work present is the aforesaid arsenic it's ever been, and that's the astir important thing. There's a fantastic operation a small spot aboriginal from the celebrated words wherever Jefferson says, All acquisition has shown that mankind are much disposed to endure portion evils are sufferable, meaning we each benignant of person gravitated to beryllium nether authoritarian rule. You know, the trains tally connected time, oregon we get astatine slightest this, but we're going to necessitate of you to beryllium a national thing more. It's got to beryllium active. The Pursuit of Happiness is is not the acquisition of things successful a marketplace of objects, but lifelong learning successful a marketplace of ideas. That's what the founders said, to beryllium virtuous, to unrecorded a virtuous life, to continually amended yourself, is what was required to prolong this republic and I deliberation that's what we've gotten distant from. Everything is benignant of each individualized. We're each escaped agents. We don't recognize that freedom, the happening that we tout, is not conscionable what I want, but besides that's volition with what we need. And I deliberation what happens is that erstwhile we survey these words, we tin spell backmost to the consciousness of newness and freshness that they represented and rededicate ourselves, and that means maine for me, and you for you, to this thought that the pursuit of happiness is astir lifelong learning. It's astir becoming ever much educated, to the work of citizenship and that's a huge, immense responsibility, not conscionable to instrumentality your feed, not conscionable to spell with this flow, not conscionable to get your accusation that benignant of ratifies what you already thought, but to really research what my neighbour thinks.
JOHN DICKERSON: Being an American, arsenic Jefferson saw it, arsenic the founders saw it, was a continuing work to prosecute with its history.
KEN BURNS: That's precisely right, and this is truly important. In bid to signifier the government, they had to scope backmost done the Middle Ages, done the Dark Ages, backmost to antiquity, to bring up these ideas similar virtuousness and temperance and moderation and each of the things that each of them were looking for. I mean, the astonishing happening is, we're present astatine Thomas Jefferson's house, but we don't person a state without his words. But besides we don't person a state without George Washington. And yet, we cognize astir each of these men. They're profoundly flawed successful galore important ways. And I deliberation today, successful our binary culture, you know, wherever everything's a 1 oregon a zero oregon it's a reddish authorities oregon a bluish state, it's my oregon the highway, we've forgotten that it's imaginable to tolerate, arsenic we bash among with the radical we love, their strengths and their weaknesses. So heroism is not perfection, right? The Greeks told america that heroism was a dialog wrong someone, sometimes a warfare betwixt somebody's large strengths and their large flaws, similar Achilles had his bottommost and his hubris to spell on with his large strengths. And truthful I deliberation that if we tin instrumentality a humanities presumption that permits america to spot a Jefferson and a Washington successful these precise analyzable knowing of them, past it's imaginable to past breathe, to person immoderate country to recognize who we are now, who we were then, and wherever we mightiness be, which is, of course, the astir important thing, each the anxiousness astir this contiguous infinitesimal is truly not truthful overmuch astir the contiguous moment, but astir volition we survive, wherever volition we beryllium and and you tin spell backmost to this infinitesimal and beryllium wholly inspirited by possibility.
JOHN DICKERSON: Is it indispensable to recognize the flaws of the founders truthful that they go much existent and truthful their lessons are much accessible?
KEN BURNS: I deliberation so. I deliberation we cognize what a superficial communicative means; its fractional beingness is truthful insignificant erstwhile you enactment everything into benignant of cartoon stuff, into the achromatic chapeau and the achromatic chapeau and what that means. Yes, erstwhile you understand, Keats said that Shakespeare possessed this happening called antagonistic capableness that you could clasp successful hostility someone's strengths and someone's weaknesses for arsenic agelong arsenic you perchance could and then, adjacent then, you didn't needfully person to marque a decision. So you tin recognize George Washington arsenic flawed arsenic rash. He rides retired connected the battlefield of making atrocious decisions arsenic a general. And yet, without him, we bash not person a country. You know, we're speaking English oregon we're speaking French oregon Spanish, immoderate it is, but, but we're a different, we're a antithetic spot without his, the enactment that helium exhibited, and of course, that enactment was exhibited astir spectacularly erstwhile helium resigned his subject committee and past near the presidency due to the fact that helium was giving up powerfulness and mounting successful question an American example, that it isn't the person, it's the law. It's the- it's the signifier of authorities and these sorts of things person held america successful bully stead for 249 years.
JOHN DICKERSON: You've named truthful galore instances successful which, fundamentally America was thought into being, successful different words, a acceptable of ideas, conscionable words, conscionable the worldly that was going connected successful a clump of heads of radical ended up shaping an full nation, and arsenic you're saying, a people of history.
KEN BURNS: So it isn't conscionable Jefferson's words, right? You've person earlier it, successful January, this Englishman who comes ashore astatine Philadelphia, fractional dead. He's a nonaccomplishment successful everything successful life, and helium writes this little, tiny pamphlet called Common Sense. His sanction is Thomas Paine, and helium gives conscionable spectacular, astir poetic dependable to this impulse. Like heretofore, radical are not definite they privation to abstracted from Britain, not definite astir independence. They surely would similar to judge it's truly not the king's fault, it's truly Parliament's fault. And each of a sudden, helium reminds radical what monarchical and authoritarian regularisation is each about, and that you know, this thought that you could instal yourself by virtuousness of your household for procreation aft procreation isn't right, and truthful tons of words earlier, Sam Adams is keeping everybody live to their grievances, helium said, that's his job, right? He's, he's a nonaccomplishment arsenic a brewer and arsenic a taxation collector, but boy, he's truly bully astatine keeping radical upset astatine what the British are doing, oregon possibly not adjacent doing, but whitethorn do, right? And truthful words are hugely important, and we are the sum full of the words we've talked about, alternatively than just, needfully ever the actions oregon the wealth oregon the spot oregon the presumption oregon the celebrity. It's, it's, you know, Washington is absorbing successful that he's besides a large judger of character. He knows however to prime subordinate endowment similar you can't believe, similar you can't believe. I mean, adjacent this committee that fundamentally (INAUDIBLE) by his age, that- that Benjamin Franklin is the benignant of the elder of each seniors. But Adam says, you know, to Jefferson, you constitute it because, like, I'm abbreviated and abdominous and disfigured and radical don't similar me. I'm obnoxious, but you person this large felicity of, with words.
JOHN DICKERSON: We're present successful Jefferson's house. What if Tom walked in? What would you privation to inquire him?
KEN BURNS: Oh, my goodness, a batch of them are profoundly idiosyncratic questions astir his ain beingness and what helium couldn't woody with. He knew, arsenic everyone knew, that slavery was immoral. It's lone aboriginal generations that are going to effort to warrant it arsenic the abolition question grows successful the 19th century, we're going to person to marque Black radical inferior successful each of this. But determination is a- there's a consciousness that, you know- he- Jefferson himself said slavery was similar holding a wolf by the ears. You didn't similar it, but you didn't situation fto go. I'd privation to inquire him, profoundly question, wherefore don't you fto it go? Your neighbour freed his slaves, your relative freed his slaves. They some urged you to bash the aforesaid thing, and you couldn't bash that. You temporized. You bought much statuary and much vino from Europe and- and what was that about? Because, of course, you could articulate these universal, aforesaid evident truths, and yet couldn't unrecorded that retired successful his ain lifetime.
JOHN DICKERSON: Can you speech astir the genius and brilliance of his words without sitting close successful the mediate of Jefferson's owning of slaves, enslaved people? You- tin you speech astir the two- I mean, tin you speech astir Jefferson's words without talking about--
KEN BURNS: No, I deliberation this is the important thing. And- and someway we've- we've gotten to the thought that you conscionable don't privation to messiness with the bully stuff. And let's conscionable pretend- wage nary attraction to that antheral behind- similar you can't bash that. A bully communicative is simply a bully communicative is simply a bully story. And this is simply a truly bully portion of the story. It's complicated, it's dark. There are quality beings successful this location who are owned by a idiosyncratic who has articulated cosmopolitan rights for everyone. And what's truthful large is that the vagueness of the words has allowed everybody to plow done and marque it their own, not conscionable here, but each astir the worldly so- truthful erstwhile helium says pursuit of happiness, that whitethorn beryllium the cardinal word. When we accidental a much cleanable national successful the Constitution aboriginal on, that whitethorn beryllium the cardinal connection that this is process that we're engaged in. And truthful possibly the- the poetry, but besides the vagueness of the words, person opened a doorway that person allowed women to travel through, that person allowed enslaved radical to person citizenship, that person expanded successful truthful galore antithetic ways and each astir the world, that that's- this is progress. This is, you know, this is- and besides the people of quality events, right? Where you don't flick the switch, and it's each perfect, each astatine once. And truthful I deliberation going backmost and knowing them for the heavy undertow that's contiguous and sometimes truly discomforting undertow astir it is okay. Nothing is diminished. Nothing is diminished. In fact, I deliberation it's made much familiar. You cognize what? When it is- erstwhile you're successful a speech with a person and the person says, you know, I should person said this before, but I truly hatred this. Or, you cognize what, I did this, there's thing suddenly, there's magnitude present to the possibilities of the connection, 1 to the other. And I deliberation erstwhile we look backmost and don't effort to sanitize it. Don't marque a Madison Avenue mentation of- of- of our past, but observe the grittiness, and I think, successful this case, the unit of the American Revolution, we bash a work to those ideas that we deliberation request to beryllium protected. I mean- what- this is not ideas that are fixed successful amber. You know, this is, this is- this is gritty, gritty stuff. People died. Lots of radical died warring for this successful conscionable horrific struggles erstwhile the main signifier of sidesplitting was a bayonet. That's not fun.
JOHN DICKERSON: More authentic, much true, and truthful much existent and accessible.
KEN BURNS: Yeah. And past I deliberation much powerful. That's- what we're looking for is meaning. At the extremity of the day, it's each astir meaning. And truthful the stories that we tell, the truer, the much analyzable they get, actually, the meaning increases. It's not decreased. It's lone an authoritarian that wishes to, you know, successful the aged Soviet thing, wherever each of a abrupt that photograph nary longer has truthful and truthful successful it, he's nary longer determination watching the May Day parade. They've chopped him retired due to the fact that he's retired of favor. We don't request to bash that successful this country. We tin really beryllium large capable to judge these contradictions wrong our founding and wrong ourselves. Jefferson is surely the embodiment of heavy and- and precise complicated, you know, differences, interior psychology.
JOHN DICKERSON: President Trump has issued an enforcement enactment successful which helium says basically, past has gotten retired of balance. Says that the American authorities either funds it done museums oregon nationalist parks, and helium said alternatively that this national relation successful past should alternatively absorption connected the greatness of the achievements and the advancement of the American people. So President Trump thinks there's an imbalance successful the mode we speech astir history. How bash you spot that?
KEN BURNS: I don't spot the imbalance. I deliberation we request to observe the greatness of the American people. The greatness of the American radical comes from telling these analyzable stories, and that's a bully story. A bully communicative is simply a bully story. That's what you're looking for. You don't privation to conscionable accidental it otherwise, it's conscionable benignant of slogans that are- that are enactment up connected the wall. We privation to consciousness that we cognize who Thomas Jefferson is. We request to recognize the interior struggles that Abraham Lincoln had. We person to recognize what was going done Rosa Parks' caput erstwhile she, you know, refused to springiness up her spot connected the bus. This, successful nary mode takes distant from the glory, it conscionable makes the communicative fuller and richer and and permits acquisition for everyone you privation a past to beryllium analyzable due to the fact that it gives everybody a accidental to ain oregon person entree to it. There is my doorway wherever I'm going through. There's a fantastic scholar, Maggie Blackhawk successful our film, who says, aft our country connected the Declaration of Independence, that it's profoundly important to radical astatine the margins. That these words that bash not see them. They bash not see women, they bash not see the poor, they bash not see immoderate enslaved oregon escaped African Americans. They bash not see Native Americans. But the words themselves are truthful inspirational that they statesman to suggest a overmuch larger and more, what we would say, benignant of American polity. That a clump of america each together, of antithetic varieties, doing tons of antithetic things and pursuing happiness, this- this thought of virtuousness and lifelong learning.
JOHN DICKERSON: Along those lines, that- the stories you archer successful this documentary and the radical who archer it are- there's a existent diversity. Was that an important portion of your storytelling?
KEN BURNS: Absolutely, I deliberation that, you know, we thin to person the Revolution, we deliberation of it arsenic conscionable the guys successful Philadelphia, which is truly important, reasoning large thoughts and penning them down. The boldface names, if you will. What we wanted to bash is instrumentality those boldface names and marque them not conscionable benignant of inaccessible, but real. So you could recognize magnitude to them. But past besides recognize they're scores of different radical that person voices and that are important, and they, you know, they're .01% of radical had their portraits painted. That doesn't mean that everybody other didn't exist, oregon everybody other didn't bash something, peculiarly if you gave your beingness connected Bunkers Hill to commencement this caller nation, or- or- or- astatine Yorktown, oregon astatine Brandywine oregon Long Island. You know, conscionable due to the fact that you don't person a representation painted, it doesn't mean that you're not somebody. So we're trying to springiness everyone a voice, and truthful that what you person is simply a chorus. So it each goes backmost to music. Always goes backmost to euphony that, you know, Lincoln talks about, the mystic chords of memory. These are not ropes. These are celestial chords that- that the chorus of Americans has an affectional powerfulness to it, that the singularity of conscionable making it astir a large antheral theory. You- the occupation has been successful that, astatine times- and whitethorn person to bash with Trump's initiatives, is that we've- successful bid to archer a bottommost up story, we sometimes thrown retired a apical down story. There's nary need. You tin bash a apical down and a bottommost up. And that's really the astir vigorous and progressive and astir almighty signifier of past is erstwhile they meet. When- arsenic you are successful a structure a fewer 100 yards from Rochambeau's structure extracurricular Yorktown, you being George Washington, that you besides cognize that that radical that's taking Redoubt Number 10 has, led by Lafayette, includes Alexander Hamilton, but besides has Joseph Plumb Martin, who signed up a mates days aft the declaration astatine property 15, and has conscionable seen unbelievable enactment and unit and whatever, is rushing the abattis, the spiked logs that are going to support them, on with Rhode Islanders who person been promised their state aft the warfare is over, some runaway and enslaved Rhode Island- I mean, this is who takes Redoubt Number 10 that permits us, on with Redoubt Number 9 that the French instrumentality to rotation the large guns successful to marque Cornwallis painfully aware, if helium has not been alert of it astatine to the- up to that constituent that his origin is lost, and volition precipitate the surrender that volition travel a fewer days later.
JOHN DICKERSON: Diversity of dependable and storytelling was important to you, that besides is nether battle astatine the moment. The president fundamentally is trying to region each efforts to support diverseness successful mind. Is determination thing that is mislaid successful that?
KEN BURNS: Well, you know, there's a spot successful a wagon instrumentality of each the antithetic spokes into the hub. We're each looking for the hub, immoderate the hub is. Meaning, you know, thing that pulls america together, that chorus, that's what we're each about. And truthful that the spot of that instrumentality has to bash with having the spokes and having a multitude of perspectives. The impulse for immoderate is to accidental there's lone 1 perspective, and that's existent of galore antithetic things, and it isn't conscionable from a apical down, benignant of a sense, truthful let's marque this simpler. It's also- a batch of radical mistake, and what we've tried to bash is beryllium liberated from immoderate manner of what's called historiography. Sorry, to you know, connected a Sunday morning, marque the words truthful big, but it's benignant of the fashions of the mode we survey history. Sometimes accidental it's got to beryllium lone from this perspective. It's got to beryllium Freudian, oregon it's got to beryllium Marxist economic, oregon it's got to beryllium symbolic, oregon it's got to be, you know, post-modern oregon whatever. The happening is, you don't request that. You- each you request to bash is say, if a kid was involved, I privation to recognize what that kid felt. If a great, you know, idiosyncratic that George Washington, I privation to cognize what he- what helium did and what helium felt. Did helium truly request to thrust retired into the conflict astatine Kips Bay and hazard his ain life. I mean, astatine 1 clip astatine Princeton, helium does the aforesaid thing, and his ain aides are covering their eyes, acrophobic they're going to spot their commandant successful chief- if he's changeable it's each over. There's nary country, right? And past ticker him marque mistakes, and astatine the aforesaid time, spot the mode helium held similar the strongest of glues the state unneurotic arsenic it's going.
JOHN DICKERSON: You accidental past is the champion teacher we have. What did moving connected this documentary astir the Revolution thatch you?
KEN BURNS: You know, here's- here's the- the pb that has been buried. This is the astir important experimentation successful quality authorities that the satellite has seen. And we- we hide that airy nether a bushel each the time, either done our interior doubts, either done our struggles with 1 another, done this benignant of binary consciousness of, you know, I'm wrong. You're- you know, you're right. I'm right, you're wrong. Whatever it mightiness be, we- we've- we've missed the astir important happening that the instauration of the United States of America was 1 of the large things that person ever taken spot successful quality history, and that's thing to celebrate.
JOHN DICKERSON: So successful looking successful the past, you discovered thing that should beryllium and is, and you're seeing precise overmuch live today.
KEN BURNS: This is what makes past the champion teacher, due to the fact that it permits you to recognize that there- it wasn't ever immoderate beautiful, large clip beforehand. It's ever been complicated. There's ever been tremendous divisions, and we ever person had an quality by utilizing the unit of the strategy we created. I mean, these guys astatine the Constitutional Convention, they are worrying perpetually about, you know- however to- well, what if this happens? Well, what if that happened? How bash we support astir this? How bash we support astir that? And they're each trying to, I mean, with the objection of the Preamble, the Constitution is extraordinarily conscionable boilerplate language. It's an operating system, right? But it's truthful good, and the information that it's instantly amended, it wouldn't person adjacent been capable to spell into effectual usage without the Bill of Rights that were benignant of fundamentally codifying what everybody thought they had been warring for implicit the past many, many, galore years. And remember, this is simply a conflict that's been, you know, with the British the conflict has been going connected from good earlier Lexington and Concord, with the Boston Massacre oregon the Tea Party oregon other, you know, acts of corporate disobedience. But successful April 19, 1775, it begins. And it's not implicit until 71 erstwhile the surrender happens successful the fall, truthful six and a fractional years. But it's not going to beryllium till the past British unit leaves, different 2 years, and the Treaty of Paris is formalized. I spot you're talking astir a immense play of clip that we're engaged successful a revolution, and there's tons of worldly going on.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why did you primitively privation to marque this?
KEN BURNS: I thought it was intolerable to do. When we were finishing our movie connected the Vietnam War successful 2015- we began this erstwhile Barack Obama had, you know, 13 months near successful his pres- presidency. People often say, wherefore the Revolution and wherefore now? I said, this is simply a truly agelong now. I- having done the Civil War and World War Two and Vietnam, I realized the past large remaining happening was to benignant of peel distant the layers of sentimentality and nostalgia that has smothered the gyration and to effort to get astatine that. And I didn't think, due to the fact that determination are nary photographs and newsreels, that we would beryllium capable to bash that, but I retrieve seeing a representation of the Ia Drang Valley successful Vietnam, a benignant of animated, astir 3-D representation that we had made. And I went, hold this- this could easy beryllium conscionable pursuing the British West successful Long Island towards Brooklyn. And if you- we tin bash this, past we person a way- we tin dainty the paintings similar they're photographs. We tin instrumentality unrecorded cinematography and dainty them similar they're paintings. We tin cod reenacting footage, not to replace, you know, telling this our accepted mode of telling a battle, but arsenic grist for the mill of however we could marque it travel alive. And each of those things, graphics and maps and unrecorded cinematography and paintings and drawings, each of them, I abruptly had this thing. I retrieve conscionable turning to Sarah Botstein and saying, we're doing the gyration next. Now, adjacent meant 10 years, oregon astir 10 years.
JOHN DICKERSON: What furniture of sentimentality astir the gyration to you is astir unsafe to the existent past oregon to the complexity of histories?
KEN BURNS: I deliberation the astir unsafe happening is to not recognize however incredibly convulsive it was and however galore antithetic parties were involved. We'd similar to judge that our gyration is our ain fantastic happening that we did, but we can't bash it without the French. This is simply a planetary warfare astatine the end, successful which not lone the- France is connected our side, but truthful is Spain and the Netherlands, but they person ulterior motives. They truly conscionable privation to spot the British, who person the largest and astir acold flung empire, diminish. So you've got each these fantastic competing things that radical go, "it's excessively complicated." It's not excessively complicated. Everybody gets it. If you tin ticker Shogun and fig it out, if you tin ticker The Bear, if you tin ticker Succession, you know, it's all- we cognize however to grip analyzable stories. And I benignant of resent the thought that we're told that we can't. That for the astir important stories that Americans could ever have, that is the communicative of us, not conscionable the precocious lawsuit U.S., but of america intimately, that someway we person to dumb it down. Sometimes- someway we person to benignant of sanitize it. Somehow we person to marque it escaped of the "yes, buts." All of beingness is simply a "yes, but."
JOHN DICKERSON: What astir attention? Do you also- What astir attention? The thought that radical conscionable don't person the clip for each this?
KEN BURNS: When I made the Civil War series, radical said, oh, this is truly good, but nary one's going to ticker it due to the fact that determination are these things called MTV videos, and they're like, 2 minutes, and they've eroded the attraction span. People person ever had their attraction drawn to little, tiny, frivolous things. Always, forever. And they've besides been capable to recognize that the top meaning accrues successful duration, that the enactment you're proudest of, the relationships you attraction the astir about, person benefited from your aforesaid attention- sustained attention. So what bash we bash present successful this tsunami of content? We binge. What? You mean, you look astatine thing for days connected end, the full happening implicit and over? We- the attraction is there. It is existent that determination are tons of distractions to that attention. But the mode we self, you know, medicate from the sheer magnitude of worldly determination is, is by saying, I'm going to take to ticker this for a truly agelong time. I spot that successful my kids who bash TikTok stuff, but they'll beryllium determination and ticker 4 seasons of immoderate it is successful 1 sitting. So I'm not disquieted that there's not an assemblage anymore retired determination for 12 hours on- connected benignant of the Rosetta Stone, of what- of wherever we came from, what our commencement was about.
JOHN DICKERSON: Going backmost to this thought of ongoing nourishment of history, portion of- spell backmost to the gyration to larn who we are, now. Do you ever deliberation of this enactment arsenic an involution in- we've gotten- radical don't- radical don't reread the Declaration each 4th of July, arsenic Thomas Jefferson wanted. People, successful your telling, look to person mislaid show of immoderate of the parts of our founding. Maybe we don't adjacent cognize them due to the fact that we've been told antithetic kinds of stories. Is this an intervention?
KEN BURNS: No. Intervention imposes betwixt the storyteller, that would beryllium us, and the communicative we're trying to archer and our assemblage immoderate benignant of larger highfalutin purpose. A bully communicative is simply a bully communicative is simply a bully story, and that's each we're funny successful doing. I bash inactive work the Declaration of Independence to my children now, grandchildren each azygous Fourth of July. I deliberation determination are tons of Americans who bash that. Certainly, determination are tons of radical who go, large a time disconnected and blistery dogs and hamburgers, what could beryllium better? And archer me, what could beryllium amended than that? It's okay. Everybody likes the fireworks display. There's- there's inactive it's- erstwhile again, it's backmost to this thought of chorus. The Fourth of July is my favourite holiday, due to the fact that you beryllium determination connected a broad connected a tract looking astatine these fireworks with each these different radical successful the dark, and you stock with them successful communal that we hold to, basically, a condemnation successful a papers written, you know, by a Virginian who lived here, you know, 249 years ago. That's truly almighty stuff. And past John Adams, helium said it, you know, this is truthful great, we should beryllium celebrating this each twelvemonth with bonfires and fireworks and demonstrations. And we do. We followed precisely what they told america to do. So, the information that it tin beryllium misinterpreted by some, this is ever going to beryllium the case. Manipulated by others, this volition ever beryllium the case. Sort of, you know, genuinely embraced, but for the incorrect reasons, this volition ever beryllium the case. But we still- we know, we recognize that we clasp these truths to beryllium self-evident, adjacent though they weren't, that each men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with definite unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Doesn't get immoderate amended than that.
JOHN DICKERSON: What is your- How bash you person the polling that shows radical are having antithetic views of what it means to beryllium patriotic, and possibly adjacent being patriotic astatine each is something, maybe, idiosyncratic doesn't privation to be.
KEN BURNS: Well, I think- I announcement that, peculiarly among a younger generation, that they person mislaid a benignant of transportation with the glories of the American experimentation due to the fact that of what they've seen. You know, if you're 7 oregon 8 years aged and you spot George Floyd murdered, you've got a antithetic consciousness of however overmuch we've delivered connected these archetypal promises oregon not. I deliberation this is- these are ebbing and flowing figures that we can't walk excessively overmuch of our clip being caught up with. We person to walk much of our clip moving towards it, the pursuit of happiness. It whitethorn impact idiosyncratic oregon groups of somebodies telling our stories. It whitethorn be, for idiosyncratic else, it mightiness beryllium helping retired astatine a nutrient kitchen. It whitethorn beryllium idiosyncratic other going to schoolhouse and successful their signifier of scholarship, successful subject oregon successful the humanities, person figured retired thing caller that we need. Maybe it's successful business, wherever you've discovered immoderate product. Or possibly it's successful nationalist service, which is an indispensable portion of each of this. And that nationalist work is not needfully the president. George Washington understood that the champion bureau was citizen. That's wherefore helium resigned. So possibly you statesman and it's your schoolhouse board, possibly it's you know, you're doing thing local. But I deliberation that we're- the polling sometimes reflects conscionable a peculiar anxiety, and these are shifting each the time, each the time. And it- and I tin archer you, conscionable successful the clip it's taken america to enactment connected this film, however overmuch things have- person changed and gone backmost and changed again. And it doesn't matter, Democrat, Republican, reddish state, bluish state. These are superficial, binary considerations. The much important happening is that is the- that's the extremity of the iceberg, right? It's the- it's the massiveness of what's underneath it. And I deliberation a batch of radical inactive stock it, and each you request is simply a communicative oregon an anthem oregon a chorus to benignant of supply the opportunities to reconfigure. That's what it is.
JOHN DICKERSON: You've told a batch of- You've told a batch of your stories connected PBS. PBS is nether threat.
KEN BURNS: All of them, each of them.
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you disquieted astir the aboriginal of PBS?
KEN BURNS: Of course, I am, and I've ever been disquieted astir it. In the 1990s I deliberation I testified successful the House oregon the Senate successful Appropriations oregon Authorization astir the endowments oregon astir the Corporation for Public Broadcasting a fractional twelve times.
JOHN DICKERSON: Make the lawsuit for PBS.
KEN BURNS: It is the Declaration of Independence applied to the communications world. It's a bottommost up. It's the largest web successful the country. There's 330 stations. It mostly serves – and this is wherever the elimination of backing for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is truthful abbreviated sighted – it chiefly serves agrarian areas successful which the PBS awesome whitethorn beryllium the lone awesome they get. They besides person not lone our bully children's and premier clip stuff, they person schoolroom connected the aerial continuing education, homeland security, harvest reports, upwind exigency information. That we're going to instrumentality away? This seems foolhardy and seems misguided, chiefly due to the fact that determination is simply a cognition among a fistful of radical that this is someway a bluish oregon a near helping thing, erstwhile this is the spot that, for 32 years, gave William F. Buckley a show, right? I mean, it's- and it's- that amusement is, by the way, is inactive going connected and moderated by a conservative. So I conscionable deliberation that possibly we're throwing the babe retired with the bath water. And I couldn't do- fto maine personalize it, and I didn't privation to. John, I couldn't bash immoderate of the films I've done without them being connected PBS. I could spell into a streaming work oregon a premium cablegram time and get each 1 of the millions of dollars it took to bash this successful 1 pitch, but they wouldn't springiness maine 10 years. They privation it successful a twelvemonth oregon a twelvemonth and a half, and that's the deal. I can't bash that. Same with Vietnam, aforesaid with the Civil War, aforesaid with Jazz, aforesaid with the National Parks, aforesaid with, you know, the Roosevelts, each of those- Country Music, each of those person taken clip to incubate, and that has been nether the strategy that has 1 ft tentatively successful the marketplace and the different proudly out, benignant of similar the National Parks oregon the Declaration of Independence applied to the landscape. These are truly bully American institutions that correspond everybody from the bottommost up, which is what it's ever about. That's the essence of what Thomas Jefferson was talking about.
JOHN DICKERSON: As idiosyncratic who worked truthful hard connected telling the communicative of slavery and enslaved radical successful assorted antithetic ways, what did you larn astir slavery successful America from moving connected this?
KEN BURNS: It's truthful analyzable and truthful interesting. I- I deliberation the happening that was astir striking that's travel to maine is that it was truly wide that our founders, adjacent those founders who owned different quality beings, knew that the instauration of slavery was indefensible. It's lone aboriginal successful the 19th period that you'll benignant of make- you'll effort to marque excuses for wherefore it's good and that they're truly wrestling with ways, but determination are quality beings that are owned by different quality beings. There are slaves from New Hampshire to- to Georgia. And 1 person, the student Annette Gordon-Reed, says it's important to recognize that the South is simply a enslaved nine and the North is simply a nine with slaves, and there's a large difference. So adjacent wrong the United States, I was learning constantly. Maybe 20,000 Black radical fought successful the Revolution, astir apt 15 for the British who had cynically offered them their freedom. Not state of loyalists, right? And however you're going to archer I don't know, but- but they are- and past 5,000 fought valiantly for the Patriot cause. It's very, precise complicated, and you tin ne'er accidental a categorical them astir anybody, and that's each we do. Look, I have- I person made films astir the U.S. for each of my nonrecreational life, but I've besides made films simultaneously astir us, each of the intimacy of that, each the majesty and complexity and contradiction and contention of the U.S. And the happening I've learned, if I've learned anything, is that there's lone us, there's nary them, and we're perpetually being told: there's a them. There's nary them and that's what this papers produced by the antheral who- who sat successful this room, you know, and looked at, you know, heard his troubled caput Meriwether Lewis, say, you cognize what, 15 cardinal got you? It got you this. And, by the way, there's nary Northwest Passage, but look what you person here. And you've got, you know, the Lewis and- this is- this is- this is wherever you cognize he- he- helium learns the full thing.
JOHN DICKERSON: If determination is lone america and nary them, it is besides a strain successful American history: look astatine them, spell get them.
KEN BURNS: That's right. It's the simplest thing. It's the authoritarians' playbook. That's what you ever do. You make- if you marque an force and you say, you know, your occupation is that there's that happening happening, but there's truly not that. All of the spiritual traditions punctual america that, oregon effort to punctual america that, and- and we privation to hide it. There's thing simplistic astir allowing ourselves to beryllium convinced that determination is simply a them, you know, we- we've- we've- we've, successful our ain governmental documents, person enshrined the sanctity of the individual. The spiritual doctrines person been doing that for centuries. And truthful the thought of making distinctions, you know, I retrieve I gave a code astatine Brandeis, a commencement speech, talking astir the Middle East, and I said, these 3 large religions, each with assertion to the aforesaid beatified ground, person turned it into a shameful graveyard. God does not separate betwixt the dead.
JOHN DICKERSON: There's a batch of speech astir them these days. Are you hoping to pierce that with this telling of America's beginning?
KEN BURNS: I don't person a conscious tendency to bash this. There's- there's a benignant of- that implies a benignant of agenda, benignant of a governmental agenda. I cognize that a bully communicative is simply a benign Trojan horse. You instrumentality it successful and it- it- it- astatine night, it goes into the city, and it doesn't slay anybody. It conscionable reminds them: nary them, nary them, nary them. This is- isn't this wonderful? Isn't this- isn't this important? Isn't this extraordinary? Isn't the complication worthy learning about? And that- that's the lone thing- that's- if- we person been- we person been truly disciplined to accidental we conscionable privation to archer a story. I mean, Mark Twain said past doesn't repetition itself, but it rhymes. We consciously understand, arsenic we're moving connected a film, however many- however overmuch it's rhyming successful the contiguous and it changes a small bit, and changes that. But we don't ever effort to enactment neon signs going, look however overmuch this is truthful overmuch similar today. We conscionable privation to fto that resonate. And you go, ohio my goodness, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, they whitethorn person wigs and they whitethorn person breeches, they're precise overmuch similar us.
JOHN DICKERSON: Because if you enactment excessively overmuch of a thumb connected the scale, you ruin the story, and past you termination the powerfulness of the story.
KEN BURNS: That's precisely right. You person to fto it archer the story. Our occupation is to beryllium a bully storyteller. Period, afloat stop, extremity of sentence.
JOHN DICKERSON: Which means telling a communicative good capable that idiosyncratic mightiness instrumentality a decision that's wholly antithetic than--
KEN BURNS: Oh, perfectly you- you know, I retrieve watching this and going, ohio my god, there's- there's really places for each antithetic kinds of radical to find purchase. You know, this is simply a big- a bully communicative is simply a large location with tons of antithetic doors, and we thin to spell done the beforehand doorway and deliberation that's it. Somebody whitethorn beryllium coming successful the broadside door. Somebody whitethorn beryllium coming- climbing up and- and breaking successful from the second- nevertheless you get in, you're in, and that's each you want, is, you know, stories are invitations like, honey, however was your day, right? It doesn't begin: I backed dilatory down the driveway, avoiding the garbage tin astatine the curb, you- you conscionable edit quality experience. And that's what we spent the past 10 years doing. We're saying this communicative of the American founding, our- our instauration myth, is arsenic important a communicative to get close arsenic anything, and we've spent 10 years trying to get it right.
JOHN DICKERSON: In Ken Burns' history, determination are galore mansions. Last question--
(CLOCK CHIMES)
JOHN DICKERSON: Oh, yay. Oh, my God, it's Thomas Jefferson saying, "Wrap it up."
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN DICKERSON: Okay, here's the- here's the question, what is the quality betwixt the Revolutionary War and the American Revolution?
KEN BURNS: Benjamin Rush, who is the large doc of the time, 1 of the signers of the Declaration, said that- erstwhile it was over, that the- the American warfare is over, but the American Revolution is going on. I deliberation if you judge the thought of pursuit of happiness, if you judge the thought of a much cleanable union, you realize, arsenic we bash successful our ain lives, successful our ain work, successful our ain relationships, that it's astir process, that we're engaged successful an ongoing tendency to execute these things. This perfection is what you privation to tilt for. It's unattainable, obviously, but if you're not engaged successful the progressive pursuit of perfection, self, relationship, community, country, world, past you're stopped, you're static, and you're not going forward. And I deliberation there's not an American that does not privation to spell forward.
JOHN DICKERSON: We're present successful Jefferson's house. The lone happening helium was possibly much arrogant of than Monticello was the University of Virginia. It's connected his tombstone. The president of the University of Virginia conscionable resigned nether unit from the president. What would Jefferson think?
KEN BURNS: Well, you know, it's the archetypal assemblage that was founded successful the United States without a spiritual affiliation. It was truly important to him that portion of this happening that we not marque the mistake of the different countries of having a acceptable and recognized religion. And I deliberation that helium would beryllium shocked astatine immoderate benignant of interference with the- with the goings connected of a laboratory of- of experimentation, a laboratory of acquisition and discovery.
JOHN DICKERSON: Can we larn astir past if the authorities is telling america what we tin and can't bash arsenic we effort to put our- our strategy for learning?
KEN BURNS: Yeah, you definite can. Stories are benignant of subversive successful that way. They conscionable archer you stuff, the, benignant of, the inconvenient truths of- of worldly that's going connected and bully stories are- are precise overmuch that, I think, and that's what we anticipation always. I'm not definite that we win everywhere, but telling a bully communicative has a benignant of mode of- of mounting speech the mythologies oregon the certainties, right? There- there's really, you know, the force of bully thing is certainty. It's ever my mode oregon the highway. That conscionable doesn't work. And truthful stories, bully stories, I think, are- are wonderfully- they person a wink to them. And you know, it's conscionable similar humor, it hits some the yes and nary astatine the aforesaid time. A bully communicative is ever going to beryllium collecting the- the complication, the tensions wrong and betwixt individuals, and erstwhile they're represented, past radical grow. You're stunted, and you're backmost to being a subject, you're backmost to being a superficial peasant, superstitious peasant, if you're- if- if- if you're subscribing to 1 acceptable of things, you know. It conscionable reminds maine of those Soviets editing the photograph, right? Saying, oh, that idiosyncratic doesn't beryllium anymore. We- we've torn him out. He- he- helium doesn't exist. He goes retired of our past books. There- it's each there. We- and- and our liberation, you know, Harry Truman is expected to person said, the lone happening that's truly caller is the past you don't know. I emotion the idea. New.
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