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The pursuing is the transcript of the interrogation with erstwhile Defense Secretary Robert Gates that aired connected "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" connected May 17, 2026.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Secretary, if you're ready, we'll dive close in.
FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ROBERT GATES: Absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So it's large to beryllium backmost present with you, but there's a batch going connected successful the world. You said successful December we're surviving successful possibly 1 of the most, if not the most, unsafe periods successful our modern American history. Why bash you consciousness that way?
SECRETARY GATES: For the archetypal clip successful our history, we look nuclear-armed adversaries successful some Europe and Asia. When China finishes their strategical atomic modernization, China and Russia unneurotic volition person astir doubly arsenic galore strategical atomic warheads deployed arsenic we do. We person ne'er faced a country, astatine least- astatine slightest since the British Empire, that had greater manufacturing and concern capableness than the United States. We person not faced a state that was arsenic technologically precocious arsenic we are, up of america successful a fewer areas, down america successful a fewer areas, beauteous overmuch adjacent with america successful a fewer others. So we look an adversary that is much almighty and- and has much non-military instruments of powerfulness than- than immoderate adversary we've faced, surely than the Soviet Union. So whether it's strategical communications oregon improvement assistance oregon commercialized oregon whatever, the Chinese are each implicit the satellite dealing with these things, truthful I deliberation if you instrumentality each those things unneurotic and- and- and the quality of the 2 regimes, this is simply a very, precise perilous time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The 2 regimes, Russia and China--
SECRETARY GATES: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The main adversaries, successful your view, of the United States.
SECRETARY GATES: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, President Trump was successful China, lasting crossed from Xi Jinping, and helium referred, astir jokingly, to the grouping arsenic the caller G2. He seemed to mean the 2 planetary powers. Do you deliberation that the U.S. and China are connected adjacent footing? Is that however you would picture it?
SECRETARY GATES: I don't deliberation truthful yet. I deliberation China is a- you know, the subject refers to China arsenic a adjacent peer, and I deliberation our- close present our subject powerfulness is greater than theirs, though they're catching up and surely up of america successful presumption of vessel gathering and truthful on. But we- that we inactive person a pb economically, we inactive person a pb technologically, and, and I think- I think, you know, we person our ain problems present astatine home, but the Chinese person immoderate existent problems arsenic well, domestically, successful presumption of their system and demography, and truthful on. So, you know, they're- they're approaching our level of power, but- but I deliberation they're not determination yet.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the gathering itself seemed to beryllium the connection betwixt President Xi and Trump. There weren't a batch of, arsenic they telephone it, deliverables coming retired of this summit. There was an announcement of moving groups to survey artificial quality and speech astir tariffs. What bash you deliberation was accomplished?
SECRETARY GATES: I deliberation that the main nonsubjective for the administration, for the president, astir apt was simply to support a lid connected the relationship, to support a level nether it truthful it doesn't deteriorate, to proceed the commercialized truce that has existed for astir a twelvemonth now. We're inactive batting backmost and distant assorted measures against each other, but by and ample the commercialized truce has- has been sustained. And- and truthful I deliberation avoiding a re-escalation of the economical struggle betwixt the two. I deliberation putting this level nether the relationship, keeping it connected adjacent keel, astir apt was the superior nonsubjective of some sides, frankly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Certainly, for the concern community, that was their concern.
SECRETARY GATES: And- and if they- if we tin get immoderate greater concern opportunities, of course, instrumentality vantage of that, and we'll spot what happens.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Xi Jinping's connection successful that nationalist connection that was released by his authorities was precise beardown connected Taiwan. China considers it a halfway issue, arsenic they described it. The U.S. inactive officially has this stance of strategical ambiguity, but bash you deliberation the code needs to displacement a small spot from the United States, fixed however beardown the Chinese rhetoric is now?
SECRETARY GATES: I deliberation the Chinese rhetoric has often been beardown successful the past erstwhile it comes to Taiwan. Whenever we've made an arms income to Taiwan successful the past, the Bush administration, Obama administration, and truthful on, the Chinese rhetoric gets very, precise strong. So I think- I deliberation Xi was reiterating the Chinese presumption connected that. I deliberation it would beryllium a mistake to alteration the cautiously worded presumption of the United States with respect to Taiwan. Any alteration astatine all, the nuances- this is 1 of those things wherever the experts parse these things down to the tense of the verbs, and truthful on. So, I think- I deliberation keeping things, the U.S. presumption arsenic it has been was important, and I deliberation everything I've work truthful acold indicates that the President did that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, permission it unfastened to question whether the U.S. would militarily travel to the defence of Taiwan if China were to determination connected it--
SECRETARY GATES: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: --that needs to beryllium an unfastened question. Well, connected paper, the president has made important pledges to Taiwan successful presumption of promised arms sales, not delivered connected yet. There's different $14 cardinal successful projected limb income that the Trump medication has delayed approving. Do you deliberation the president should greenish airy that?
SECRETARY GATES: I deliberation helium should. I deliberation we should spell guardant with what- with what we've agreed with Taiwan. One of the concerns that I person is adjacent with respect to erstwhile arms sales, determination is simply a immense backlog of weapons that we person sold to Taiwan that we person not been capable to present due to the fact that we don't person the supplies, and truthful if you're offering different 14 billion, is that conscionable going to beryllium added to the backlog, oregon is determination a mode guardant successful presumption of really getting these weapons to the Taiwanese? I deliberation 1 of the- an important happening that has happened successful caller years is getting the Taiwanese to absorption connected purchasing the kinds of weapons that would beryllium indispensable to support themselves against a Chinese amphibious invasion. In the past, they wanted the kinds of high-end weapons that would alteration them to retake the mainland. Well, that's ne'er going to happen. And- and truthful getting the, the aged Chinese- the aged Taiwanese generals to accommodate their reasoning to the kinds of weapons that the Ukrainians, for example, person been using, and truthful on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: -- The HIMARS, the THADDS--
SECRETARY GATES: It has been an achievement, and, and the Taiwanese legislature has conscionable yet reached an statement to money the acquisition of these weapons, truthful I think- I deliberation we should spell guardant with it. It is successful our ain mode our antagonistic to President Xi's beardown statement. Yes, you person your position, we person ours.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you speech astir the request for weapons. There's a bigger occupation with proviso and readiness and entree to them close now. A retired colonel successful China's People's Liberation Army was precocious quoted successful the New York Times saying the depletion of US stockpiles has "significantly diminished the US military's quality to task its combat power." They're looking astatine what's being utilized successful Iran and Ukraine. I cognize Admiral Paparo, the caput of Pacific Command, has said helium doesn't spot immoderate existent costs connected our quality to deter China, but isn't that beauteous clip dependent? It's reasonably good reported and established that determination is simply a lag successful presumption of replenishing American weapons stockpiles. Isn't that a problem?
SECRETARY GATES: It is simply a problem, and I, and I deliberation I deliberation this administration, especially, has- has been precise assertive successful moving with the Congress successful trying to grow our defence industries and bring caller companies into the defence concern premix that tin nutrient the kinds of numbers of these weapons that are necessary. I've work that Ukraine is going to nutrient 7 cardinal drones adjacent year, oregon implicit the adjacent year. We request that benignant of capableness successful the United States, and so, but it's a substance of getting the factories built, expanding factories. Part of the occupation successful Washington is you get each the close rhetoric astir expanding our quality to nutrient these weapons, but the wealth is dilatory to come, and it's unpredictable, and truthful what's needed is- is accelerated enactment successful really starting to get these factories built and grow these capabilities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But erstwhile you comparison it to Ukraine, that's a wartime economy, that's an exigency they're responding to. You're saying we request to enactment similar it is here?
SECRETARY GATES: Absolutely, absolutely. We bash request to replenish, and I would accidental that I'm good aware- good distant from it now, but based connected everything I've seen, I deliberation that wherever we person the existent shortfalls are successful presided- precision-guided munitions, but besides antiaircraft missiles similar Patriots, the THAAD missiles, and the Navy's Standard Missile-3 that are our astir effective, though precise costly aerial and rocket defence systems, and those are the ones that person been expended especially.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Recently?
SECRETARY GATES: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Secretary Rubio did archer different network, though, that his content is that China's penchant is to person Taiwan willingly articulation the People's Republic. Do you expect that to beryllium the much apt script that determination is benignant of a dilatory strangulation of Taiwanese ideology by the Communist party?
SECRETARY GATES: Let maine enactment it this way, I think- I deliberation the chances of a Chinese penetration of Taiwan are beauteous low, peculiarly implicit the adjacent respective years, and partially due to the fact that Xi has other- different options unfastened to him that include- that impact acold little risk. So, they person surrounded Taiwan with ships, and successful the air. They person shown their quality to adjacent disconnected maritime and aerial entree to the island. They could make a blockade oregon a quarantine astir Taiwan anytime they wanted, what the Taiwanese telephone an anaconda strategy, and it would strangle Taiwan implicit time. I don't deliberation they privation to spell successful and onslaught Taiwan. They don't privation to destruct the precise spot factories they privation to instrumentality over. So, and past there's- there's cyber, determination are each kinds of pressures. I besides deliberation that the Chinese are hoping that implicit clip the Kuomintang, KMT, which has been much affable toward China, volition beryllium a conveyance that volition let them implicit clip to get much and much power successful Taiwan and possibly person immoderate benignant of a Hong Kong benignant modulation implicit a play of time. I think- deliberation that the Chinese would acold similar that benignant of, if you will, takeover of Taiwan than each the risks inherent successful a subject invasion. There isn't 1 azygous Chinese wide oregon admiral contiguous that has 1 time of combat experience. The past clip these guys fought was 1979 and the North Vietnamese- the Vietnamese gave them a bloody nose. Xi has fired- has fired each these generals. He's- determination are present nary generals near connected the Central Military Commission that benignant of oversees the full thing. He's fired- and they're slated for execution his past 2 defence ministers. So this is not an outfit that I deliberation helium has tremendous assurance successful close now, and there- he's been warring against corruption successful their subject ever since helium became president of China. So I'm not definite that helium thinks his subject is the top successful the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Or he's threatened by them.
SECRETARY GATES: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let maine inquire you astir what's happening successful the Middle East. The past clip we spoke, past spring, we were conscionable weeks distant from that US-Israeli onslaught connected the 3 atomic sites successful Iran. You said astatine that time, it was May, erstwhile you were Defense Secretary, you were acrophobic that a onslaught connected the atomic programme would conscionable bargain time, a twelvemonth oregon two, but it would not lick the problem. Do you inactive judge that?
SECRETARY GATES: I deliberation the lone mode that we are apt to get the enriched uranium retired of- retired of Iran and bring astir an extremity to their atomic aspirations is done a negotiation. To spell aft that enriched- that buried 1000 pounds of enriched uranium, immoderate immense and analyzable subject operation. And truthful I think- I deliberation that the lone mode you bash this and bringing unit to carnivore connected them to unit them into negotiations is certainly- is surely the lone way that seems to connection immoderate accidental of success, but- but I deliberation yet that that the lone mode you really extremity the Iranian atomic programme for bully is to negociate it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, that connection of having the UN spell successful and inspect the sites and perchance region the enriched uranium was connected the array earlier the strikes were carried retired successful February. They weren't rather astatine a deal, but that was being discussed. Is that wherever we extremity up astatine the extremity of this, backmost with immoderate benignant of UN bureau going successful and doing what the US and Israel person not been capable to do?
SECRETARY GATES: I- I fishy that the medication would not settee for immoderate statement that did not see getting that enriched uranium retired of Iran, oregon arsenic has- has been said, oregon diluting it successful immoderate mode that makes it nary longer usable for- for a imaginable weapon.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the diplomacy seems to beryllium astatine a stalemate, and truthful does the subject operation, astatine this infinitesimal successful time, with Iran inactive having power implicit the Strait of Hormuz. Is it imaginable for the President of the United States to locomotion distant and permission this for the Israelis to settle?
SECRETARY GATES: No, I don't deliberation helium tin locomotion away. And no, I don't deliberation the Israelis tin settee it. I don't think, arsenic almighty arsenic they are, they don't person the benignant of powerfulness the United States has, and- and I deliberation the President seems to person been precise accordant and precise wide that nether nary circumstances tin Iran ever person a atomic bomb. Well, the lone mode you get to that nonsubjective is resolving this contented of the enriched uranium and immoderate aboriginal plans for- for enrichment. I mean, I think- I don't deliberation that the atomic programme successful Iran poses an imminent threat. After all, we bombed it twice. The atomic worldly is beauteous profoundly buried, to- you'd person to rotation up, usage the centrifuges to rotation it from 60% enriched to implicit 90% enriched. The centrifuges are precise sensitive, they're besides mostly destroyed. Many of their atomic scientists person been killed, truthful I don't think- this is not a occupation for tomorrow, but it does, you know, the President's got it close successful presumption of this is simply a semipermanent menace that cannot beryllium allowed to develop, and if near alone, they intelligibly are- person been trying to determination successful that direction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But it is simply a large capable occupation that it was intelligibly not going to beryllium settled successful 4 to six weeks, which was the timestamp that the American radical were told to expect, successful presumption of the duration of conflict.
SECRETARY GATES: I deliberation that determination were immoderate unrealistic expectations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're smiling arsenic you accidental that. Do you person a clear- person you heard a intelligibly articulated benignant of halfway of gravity to this operation, an extremity goal, a strategy? Because determination are members of Congress who are saying they're not getting capable accusation from the medication connected galore of these points.
SECRETARY GATES: Well, I deliberation immoderate of the justifications have- person changed implicit time, but 1 happening I deliberation determination person been a fewer things that person been accordant from the precise beginning. One is to destruct Iran's quality to person a atomic weapon. Another is to destruct their subject capabilities to onslaught their neighbors. Third is to destruct the capableness to enactment their surrogates, the Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis. To descend their navy. I deliberation those are all- those were- person each been articulated arsenic objectives of this operation, and though the atomic programme has been dramatically damaged and acceptable backmost a agelong time, I deliberation those different things, a batch has been accomplished.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Prime Minister Netanyahu told my workfellow Major Garrett implicit the weekend, connected 60 Minutes, that the warfare was not over, due to the fact that determination were inactive atomic issues, determination were inactive missiles that needed to beryllium dealt with, and militias. He did not look to beryllium saying helium was done.
SECRETARY GATES: I think- I deliberation it would beryllium hard to accidental the warfare is over, I deliberation from either the standpoint of the United States oregon Israel astatine this point.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Prime Minister Netanyahu is idiosyncratic you had a batch of acquisition with implicit the years.
SECRETARY GATES: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you were precise captious of him successful your 2014 book. You referred to his arrogance and outlandish ambition successful his approach, specifically to Iran. You recalled a disagreement during a 2009 meeting, wherever helium argued an onslaught connected Iran's atomic facilities would trigger the Iranian radical to overthrow the regime, and that Iran would not attack, helium said, American targets oregon lipid facilities successful the region. That was successful 2009 and helium was trying to property an American president to bash what this American president has done. Was helium overly optimistic then, and is helium now?
SECRETARY GATES: He told maine each those things successful July of 2009 and I told him past helium was dormant wrong, that helium was underestimating the resilience of the Iranians, that I thought helium had been lulled into an unrealistic presumption by the lack of an Iraqi absorption erstwhile the Israelis destroyed the Osirak reactor successful Iraq. he- he'd been lulled by the Syrian deficiency of absorption erstwhile we destroyed their- erstwhile Israel destroyed their reactor, that was during the 2nd Bush administration, and I told him--
MARGARET BRENNAN: But this is the warfare he's been trying to merchantability for years?
SECRETARY GATES: --and I told him that, that this notion, that- that the- helium was saying, past the authorities is fra- this is 2009, the authorities is fragile, it'll crumble astatine the archetypal onslaught and they won't person clip to bash thing else. I told him then, helium was wrong.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The authorities was historically anemic astatine the infinitesimal of these strikes. Is it imaginable he's- close now, adjacent though we haven't seen those things, similar an uprising among the Iranian people?
SECRETARY GATES: I deliberation that the likelihood of an uprising, of course, this is 1 of those predictions that tin get you into a batch of trouble, but I deliberation the likelihood of a near-term uprising is precise low, due to the fact that the besiege and the interior controls look precise overmuch intact successful Iran. You haven't seen immoderate demonstrations, oregon precise fewer demonstrations successful the street. People are cowed, they're afraid, and close present they're acrophobic with however they- however they tin devour and unrecorded nether the existent circumstance. This is simply a authorities that couldn't supply h2o to Tehran earlier the onslaught started. So I deliberation that- I deliberation erstwhile the information volition come, volition beryllium immoderate clip aft the- aft the warfare stops, but I besides deliberation what you mostly spot successful regimes similar this is not truthful overmuch a alteration of authorities from the streets, but that the authorities itself begins to fracture, and that you person radical wrong the authorities who privation to instrumentality a antithetic tack, and truthful you person an interior combat for control.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let maine inquire you astir however America is handling its ain problems present astatine home. You were a CIA director, you were a Defense Secretary. How bash you measure Secretary Hegseth's performance?
SECRETARY GATES: Well, I will. I mean, I'm not into talking astir my successors, but I volition accidental I privation to constituent to thing affirmative that I deliberation is going connected that goes backmost to thing we were talking astir earlier. I think- I deliberation the enactment successful the Pentagon, and particularly the lawman caput and the undersecretary progressive successful acquisition are doing immoderate precise important and overdue things successful presumption of shaking up the bureaucracy successful the Pentagon, successful trying to fig retired ways not lone to grow concern accumulation of defence materials and to bash it on-time and on-budget, but besides to bring and make caller new companies into the defence and concern concern that person caller kinds of manufacturing capabilities and that tin crank retired what we request overmuch faster and overmuch cheaper than that has been the lawsuit successful the past. I think- I deliberation immoderate of the moves to trim the autonomy of the services will- volition assistance this, truthful I deliberation immoderate of the things they're doing to effort and- and shingle up the defence concern basal is truly important and a precocious priority.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But we're present astatine William & Mary, wherever you are chancellor. This is 1 of the universities that Secretary Hegseth included connected his database of punctuation "woke breeding grounds of toxic indoctrination." He has ordered U.S. troops cannot be this schoolhouse oregon institutions similar it, including ones helium studied astatine Princeton and Harvard. He referred to them arsenic "factories of anti-American resentment and subject disdain." What's your effect to that? Because I'm definite you person immoderate feelings, but also, what's the interaction connected telling our warring unit that they can't be a schoolhouse similar this?
SECRETARY GATES: Well, I deliberation he's severely misinformed. The information is, this is simply a precise military-friendly campus. We person a batch of relationships with subject organizations present successful the Tidewater of Virginia. And adjacent successful Washington, we bash a batch of nationalist information enactment here, and we person a precise progressive ROTC program, I conscionable commissioned 10 officers past night. So I deliberation this is simply a very, precise military-friendly campus, and- and we person precise bully relationships with the services.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But a "woke breeding crushed of toxic indoctrination." What's the interaction connected our adjacent procreation of American troops who won't person entree to apical universities due to the fact that of his description?
SECRETARY GATES: Well, I deliberation they will, and I think--
MARGARET BRENNAN: --you don't deliberation this lasts.
SECRETARY GATES: I think, well, archetypal of all, I deliberation the applicable exertion of this has been 1 fellowship present astatine William & Mary. We've got a batch of different relationships going. And I deliberation that archetypal of all, I deliberation that's a implicit mischaracterization of this- of this campus, but- but I deliberation the subject is inactive going to beryllium progressive connected U.S. campuses done the ROTC programs and assorted different nationalist information programs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But he's got this absorption connected the "warrior ethos." I'm definite you've heard a batch of what helium has announced. He summoned the generals to D.C., told them he's bushed of seeing abdominous troops and abdominous generals. He wants to measurement them doubly a year. He ordered a ruthless reappraisal of the Judge Advocate corps, the subject lawyers. He fired astir of the inspectors general, saying helium planned to overhaul the weaponized interior Pentagon watchdog. When you're talking astir the things you like, would you enactment immoderate of these things connected that list?
SECRETARY GATES: No, I volition accidental this. I mean, I- I fired a just fig of generals and elder radical myself. The mode I handled it was a small differently, successful the respect that I felt that I needed to spell successful beforehand of the property and explicate wherefore I had taken these actions. And successful the lawsuit of wherever I, connected the aforesaid day, fired the Chief of Staff of the Air Force and the Secretary of the Air Force, I not lone had a property league explaining wherefore I had done it successful presumption of the mishandling of atomic materials and weapons, I went to 3 antithetic aerial bases to speech to airmen, assemblies of airmen to explicate wherefore I had relieved their superior officers. So I deliberation you request to beryllium capable to marque changes successful personnel, but I deliberation the mode you bash it, and is important, and I deliberation it's important to explicate to radical wherefore you person done it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well there's not a afloat Pentagon property corps, adjacent contiguous astatine the Pentagon these days for a quality league similar that, without getting peculiar support to beryllium connected the premises close now. He's fired 16 subject officials, astatine least, including the Navy Secretary and the Army Chief of Staff General Randy George during the Iran war. He pushed retired the admiral astatine the helm of SOUTHCOM, the Chief of Naval Operations, the Air Force Vice Chief of Staff, the caput of defence intelligence. Do you spot those things arsenic indispensable disruption that yet volition person a affirmative impact, oregon does it interest you?
SECRETARY GATES: Well, it concerns me, but I besides person to admit that I don't cognize the rationale for those changes. I don't cognize wherefore those changes were made, and determination whitethorn beryllium perfectly justifiable reasons, but I'm, I conscionable don't cognize what they are.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you deliberation that that should beryllium explained to the nationalist and to the Congress?
SECRETARY GATES: I think, I deliberation that people, when, erstwhile you person a batch of changes similar that, yeah, I deliberation you, I deliberation determination is an work to explain, astatine a minimum, to the Congress the rationale.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The systems don't look to beryllium operating that mode close now.
SECRETARY GATES: No.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're being precise diplomatic successful your statement of oversight of the Pentagon and Pentagon operations. Let's inquire astir different state earlier I fto you go, due to the fact that I'm getting the wrapper here. The CIA manager was conscionable successful Havana, gathering with Raúl Castro's grandson, on with the caput of quality and the caput of- the curate of the interior. The U.S. is offering Cuba aid, they're pressing for governmental alteration and floating the imaginable of indicting 95- 94-year-old Raúl Castro, who's nary longer successful power, but he's intelligibly influential. Does it substance to U.S. nationalist information what happens connected this island?
SECRETARY GATES: I deliberation that really the biggest hazard is that we extremity up with different Mariel evacuation from Cuba that has tens of thousands of Cubans heading to the United States retired of desperation, arsenic has happened a fig of years ago. So I deliberation that's really astatine this constituent the biggest threat. You know, the Cubans have- person had a batch of information radical successful Venezuela, they were, they were- formed the information cordon astir Maduro. He didn't spot his ain people. They've done this successful different countries, truthful they person been progressive successful ways that person impacted our nationalist information and our interests successful their engagement successful different countries for a agelong time. And- but are they an imminent menace to the United States? Other than successful these, if you will, peripheral ways, I think, I deliberation the main menace is, frankly, is collapse.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which the medication says they're trying to avoid.
SECRETARY GATES: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.
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