Transcript: Brett McGurk on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Oct. 4, 2026

The pursuing is the afloat transcript of the interrogation with Brett McGurk, who served arsenic a apical Middle East advisor to erstwhile Preident Joe Biden, a information of which aired connected "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" connected Oct. 4, 2026.

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MARGARET BRENNAN: So, October 6th, 2023, Saudi Princess Reema Bandar shakes hands with you connected a woody meant to normalize relations, oregon commencement normalizing relations betwixt Israel and Saudi Arabia, make a pathway for the Palestinians, springiness Saudi the civilian atomic deal, and wrong hours this unthinkable onslaught happens successful Israel. Why, successful the book, bash you reason that those 2 things are connected?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, first, Margaret, it's large to beryllium here. And I effort to conscionable archer this history. It's chronological, but I truly effort to bring the scholar into the room. And the publication starts astir 3 days into the Biden administration, President Biden asked maine to spell spot the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia astir immoderate important changes we were going to marque successful Saudi policy, including cutting disconnected assorted weapons systems and a fig of steps. And the Crown Prince successful that gathering benignant of enactment connected the array the anticipation of recognizing Israel, a benignant of big, you know, breakthrough imaginable deal. And we didn't truly prime that up until astir a twelvemonth and a fractional into the administration, and I describe, I think, that was mislaid clip and unfortunate. But erstwhile we did prime it up, we made immoderate existent advancement connected it, and we had a bundle of agreements, including the Palestinian Authority was moving with america connected this deal. And connected October 6, you're right, I had a Saudi delegation successful my bureau with Princess Reema. Tony Blinken was astir to spell to the Middle East. And we had mapped out- I inactive can't accidental if not for what happened a fewer hours later, we decidedly would person gotten the deal. But it was definitely- it was moving successful that direction, and we were rather confident. And Reema and I shook hands connected by the extremity of the year, really, to person this successful place, and past speech astir the- the rollout of it successful the archetypal 4th of 2024. What happened conscionable a fewer hours aboriginal evidently knocked that contented off- disconnected the docket and everything else. I deliberation it's- it's tragic due to the fact that I deliberation that deal, erstwhile you measurement back, if you look astatine what was happening conscionable a fewer weeks earlier the events of October 7th, we're present the 3rd anniversary, you had things happening that had not happened successful 55 years. You had a elder Saudi authoritative visiting Ramallah successful the West Bank to spot the Palestinian Authority, archetypal clip since 1967. You had Israeli officials successful Israel- oregon Israeli officials successful Saudi Arabia, and- and I deliberation a bundle that would person acceptable the instauration for what is present successful a UN Security Council resolution, Margaret, a credible pathway to Palestinian authorities determination and statehood. That's what we were talking about. Hamas, of course, does not admit Israel, wants to destruct Israel, and I would not beryllium amazed if 1 of the motivations connected October 7th was to sound this docket disconnected the table.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you judge that Hamas person Yahya Sinwar knew that determination were these plans for a Palestinian pathway and normalization betwixt Israel and Saudi Arabia, and that factored into his thinking?

BRETT MCGURK: We ne'er saw thing to necktie a nonstop connection.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay.

BRETT MCGURK: I ne'er saw thing to necktie a nonstop connection, but surely it was known that this woody was moving successful that direction. Mohammed bin Salman said it successful September. It's similar a- 1 of the biggest deals that- could beryllium 1 of the biggest deals since the Cold War--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --Transform the Middle East if it had happened.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, truthful it was precise overmuch successful the- But I deliberation October 7th had been planned, from what we aboriginal learned, for a play of years, and this was not thing that conscionable abruptly enactment together. But I learned astir the onslaught that nighttime astir midnight from Mike Herzog, the Israeli ambassador. I got a telephone from the Situation Room, also. It was rocket attacks and past cross-border attacks, and, you know, events benignant of unfold- I picture it successful the publication of, arsenic a situation unfolds, you- you larn and you- you spot jagged pieces. And it inactive wasn't wide adjacent by daybreak, erstwhile I was astatine the White House, and yet saw President Biden aboriginal that morning, conscionable the scope of the standard of- of what was underway.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you wrote that the U.S. "had nary wide warnings; nor did the Israelis, from what they told us." But you permission unfastened the thought that determination were missed signals. Was this a full quality failure?

BRETT MCGURK: I think, Margaret- So we person truly looked, we did not person any- thing successful our strategy that would person been a informing and indicator.

MARGARET BRENNAN: No U.S. intelligence.

BRETT MCGURK: No U.S. quality of a informing oregon indicator. I can't talk to whether the Israelis- the Israelis inactive person to this time not had a committee of inquiry. We had a 9/11 committee that I deliberation made a fig of reforms that person helped support our state harmless since 9/11. The Israelis inactive person not done that. I deliberation they person to, they should bash that. But from what I, successful dealing with each these guys successful Israel, information echelon, governmental echelon, I deliberation they had an presumption that was profoundly ingrained that Hamas was deterred, assuaged, and was not astir to bash thing monolithic connected any- immoderate standard similar this. I deliberation that was a mendacious presumption successful their system, a nonaccomplishment of imagination, and it was tragic. I can't talk to whether oregon not determination was a circumstantial warning. We did not, we did not cognize of any.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. didn't know, and the U.S. didn't warn. But determination has been caller reporting successful the New York Times, successful the Israeli insubstantial Ha'aretz, successful the Atlantic, astir aggregate benignant of heads up from different determination leaders. Emirati person Sheikh Mohammed seemingly reported to Israel's Prime Minister Hamas was readying a large attack. The Atlantic said Egypt's intel main besides came to Israel successful precocious September and warned Hamas was mobilizing for an attack. He didn't person a date, helium didn't person the specifics, but helium had a warning. Why wasn't that taken much seriously?

BRETT MCGURK: So again, I- I cognize Sheikh Mohammed rather well. When thing on- is connected his mind, he'll call. He called maine astatine the White House once. Great respect for him. But we- we did not- we were not alert of- of a telephone call. And Abbas Kamal, the Egyptian intel chief, is simply a main quality successful the book, we're with him each the time. Again, I besides I conscionable never- I had not- I did not hear–and I've checked with a fig of my- my colleagues connected this–of a pre-warning of October 7 from those 2 individuals. So I can't- Again, this is wherefore I deliberation Israel should person a wide probe of what was known, what was missed astatine the precise top, and also, you know, what quality analysts mightiness person been seeing things that others weren't, wherefore that accusation wasn't passed up. That's what has to hap successful a concern similar this. Again, we went done it, and I deliberation Israel should bash the same.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But conscionable days aft the attack, connected Capitol Hill, you know, the caput of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Mike McCaul, said Egypt did springiness a heads up. Diplomatic sources said that determination were messages conveyed successful precocious summertime and September, including a informing from Yahya Sinwar that helium was going to bash something. But you accidental it's conscionable a nonaccomplishment of imagination, that arsenic to what that thing was.

BRETT MCGURK: I think, I fishy erstwhile you look back, you volition find akin to the types of warnings that were successful our quality strategy earlier 9/11. Nothing of a, benignant of, an actionable nature. And remember, Hamas and Israel earlier October 7th, they were successful a negotiation, this benignant of ties into the taxable of the book, Margaret, a hostage negotiation, due to the fact that Hamas had been holding 2 Israeli hostages: [Avera] Mengistu and Hisham al-Sayed. Two- 1 Arab Israeli, 1 Ethiopian Israeli, who were mentally ill, recovered their mode successful Gaza, and Hamas person been holding them for 10 years, and the remains of immoderate Israeli soldiers from- from an earlier war. That dialog had been going on. Again, this conscionable gets to Hamas. They clasp hostages for- to transcend maximum leverage and concessions. And I deliberation successful the people of putting a caller request connected the table, Hamas saying it's either this oregon else, fixed the assumptions that were successful the Israeli system, it astir apt would person been a informing would person been work successful that--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --In that context.

BRETT MCGURK: --this is Hamas trying to play for that negotiation. But again, I person to say, I don't- I don't cognize what was successful the Israeli strategy and what was known successful the Israeli side. I deliberation that's wherefore they person to, you know, they're going to person an predetermination soon, and everything earlier an election, peculiarly successful Israel, tin get a small crazy. But erstwhile there's a caller government, I deliberation having a superior committee of enquiry for what happened and making immoderate reforms to guarantee thing similar this tin ever hap again is precise important.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Because you judge determination should beryllium accountability from the apical down?

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, I judge that- what was--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Or determination is culpability?

BRETT MCGURK: --what was missed. Clearly, what- what was missed. I deliberation it's precise important for immoderate state to spell done thing similar that aft a horrific incidental similar this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: In talking astir Hamas, you constitute extensively astir the state of Qatar and their centrality to the deal-making with Hamas due to the fact that you weren't talking straight to the panic group, you were speaking done this state arsenic an intermediary successful bid to get the hostages out. And you uncover that the Emir of Qatar told you Hamas was a load to them, 1 he'd shed if lone the U.S. asked. Do you mean to accidental Hamas is inactive lone successful Qatar due to the fact that America wants them there? That we privation that mode to get successful interaction with the panic group?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, Qatar- and I spell done this in- successful the book. When you're- we're successful this awful, horrific, atrocious situation successful each magnitude and however bash you- you can't conscionable accidental halt the warfare merchandise the hostages, you person to really marque that hap utilizing diplomacy, leverage. And Qatar is the cardinal mediator with Hamas leadership, and that is thing that we inherited successful our administration. It's been that way, they've been successful Doha since the outbreak of the Syrian Civil War erstwhile they moved from Damascus to Doha, again, with the fundamentally tacit statement of Israel and besides the statement of, then, the Obama administration. So what the Qataris volition accidental is, look, they're- they're here, they person their offices present partially for your benefit. So bash you privation america to get escaped of them? Sometimes they would accidental that to us, and sometimes I said successful highest of frustration, yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Kick them out?

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, the question is then: wherever are they going to be, and however bash you really get thing done? I mean, this is what was truthful tragic, Margaret. I mean, here- present we person the worst time successful Israel since the Holocaust. We person astir 1,200 radical dead. We person the largest wide hostage onslaught in- oregon hostage situation successful modern history, and Hamas knew that by taking hostages connected this scale, they volition beryllium treated as, basically, statesmen successful a negotiation. I mean, that's benignant of however it- however it plays out, and the asymmetry determination is incredibly frustrating, obviously, to the Israelis, it's frustrating to maine passim the process, but Qatar plays a captious role. And Sheikh Mohammed, who's a quality successful the book, the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Qatar also, was a cardinal intermediary. I don't deliberation we could person gotten this done without him.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it's a constituent successful the discourse of the Israeli elections that's absorbing due to the fact that you cognize immoderate of the candidates who are moving to regenerate Netanyahu are saying Qatar's an force state. They're backing terrorism, and they request to spell aft them.

BRETT MCGURK: I person a section successful the publication wherever I laic retired the the benignant of enigma successful dealing with Qatar, and, you know, the Gulf states are precise often precise divided because- you mentioned Sheikh Mohammed and UAE, and this gets into relations with- the narration betwixt the authorities and governmental Islam with the Muslim Brotherhood, and countries similar Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE wholly banned, for example, the Muslim Brotherhood. Whereas Qatar has a precise antithetic philosophy. Their doctrine is we person to woody with everybody. Of course, we person 1 of our largest subject bases successful Qatar. Qatar besides has Al Jazeera. I was successful the Bush administration, I retrieve President Bush railing connected the Qataris astir what was being played connected Al Jazeera. So it is simply a chronic contented and thing I deliberation we rise with Qatar precise strongly. But erstwhile it comes to these deals, Qatar plays a cardinal role. It's just- it's conscionable a information of it, and I speech astir this successful the book. When you're successful the mediate of the crisis, we're trying to get hostages home, we're trying to negociate what could beryllium a broader determination war. We're constantly- 1 crushed it's titled "Brink," we are perpetually connected the brink of a broader determination war, and without Qatar, we would not person had immoderate precise captious channels to effort to support things under- nether control.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Let maine inquire you astir the Israeli Prime Minister. You dealt with him rather directly. Throughout the publication you papers that. And successful February 2024, you speech astir a gathering you had with him. You were precise focused connected these hostages and trying to get them out. You said "for much than 30 minutes helium ne'er mentioned the hostages…Netanyahu was animated successful discussing the subject run and acold little truthful erstwhile discussing the hostages–when helium chose to sermon them astatine all."

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Why? Why bash you deliberation that is?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, archetypal of all, I picture Netanyahu, I spent a batch of clip with him, he's benignant of– As a negotiator, there's a word of creation successful the publication called a ZOPA, Zone of Possible Agreement. And if you- if you conscionable benignant of enactment this up, wherever was the- you person Hamas saying, their halfway request is they person to enactment successful power, spell backmost to October 6th presumption quo, they enactment successful power, they volition reconstitute, they'll beryllium connected Israel's border, they privation each Palestinian prisoners released, and past we tin merchandise the hostages. Israel's halfway request aft October 7th is that Hamas tin nary longer beryllium successful powerfulness successful Gaza, ever. Completely irreconcilable. And the hostages are specified a cardinal portion of this due to the fact that you're ne'er going to really halt the warfare without- without the hostages. And there's a continuum successful a hostage negotiation, and I've done them before, adjacent extracurricular this context, with Iran successful particular, successful which the hostage negotiator sets a price. And Maimonides, who was a 12th-century Jewish ineligible theorist, and helium has a, benignant of a commandment, and I person it successful the book. There's nary higher commandment for a state, for a government, than the redemption, helium says, of hostages, of captives. But helium besides says there's a- the terms cannot beryllium truthful precocious to fundamentally enactment the remainder of nine successful jeopardy. And this is the- this is the tension, the- the request to- to bring the hostages home, and ensuring that the terms is 1 that doesn't promote further hostage taking oregon acceptable the conditions for the adjacent war. Okay. So, and this- this is simply a debate, Margaret, that goes done Israeli nine and went done the highest echelons of the Israeli government. It plays passim this book. It went into this- Keith and Aviva Siegel, who were taken hostage connected October 7th, successful their home, they person a sticker–and they're precise cooperative for this book–it says, "Gilad is alive." That was Gilad Shalit, an Amer- an Israeli soldier, held by Hamas for 5 years, released aft 5 years for 1,000 Palestinian prisoners, hardcore Hamas operatives, including Yahya Sinwar, and similar galore Israelis, they supported that deal. And connected October 7th, connected Yahya Sinwar's orders, the elite units of Hamas are approaching Kfar Aza, their kibbutz, and yet entering their home, taking them hostage. So wherever bash you gully this line? And Netanyahu was- was focused acold much connected the subject run and ensuring Hamas tin ne'er clasp powerfulness successful Gaza, believing the subject run and the unit connected Hamas would pb to a woody that released each the hostages, whereas we were trying to absorption connected a phased deal. At slightest let's get immoderate of the hostages retired first. And Netanyahu ever believed that much subject unit volition really present a amended deal, whereas Sinwar believed much clip would enactment much unit connected the U.S. and others to present him a amended deal. So it makes this astir an intolerable concern to woody with.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But it besides reveals your vexation successful that, that you felt the U.S. was putting much worth connected those lives than the Israeli authorities did?

BRETT MCGURK: I feel- I deliberation the- the U.S. relation successful this, successful each dimensions, we're trying to halt a warfare and- and get the hostages home, and the 2 were- the 2 are wholly linked, and to trim quality suffering arsenic overmuch arsenic imaginable successful Gaza. You cognize Netanyahu, I picture him arsenic evidently precise assured successful his assumptions–and helium has a member who was killed successful the Entebbe raid–very assured successful presumption of his content successful however to woody with these groups, and yet I judge a batch of times determination were miscalculations. This is besides precise very difficult. Yeah, but I picture my meetings with him- again, I bring readers wrong the room. You're sitting determination with Bibi Netanyahu. You're with quality main of Egypt erstwhile Hamas is connected different floor. You're- you benignant of get a consciousness of what this is similar successful the day- successful the day-to-day.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it's an absorbing dynamic due to the fact that now, since the extremity of the Biden administration, determination continues to be, benignant of, statement astir this strategy. And National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan has publically suggested that the U.S. absorption was truthful overmuch connected the hostages that it was astir a "trap," arsenic helium enactment it, "in reasoning that we tin get to a ceasefire and a hostage deal," and different things were sublimated to that objective. I mean, successful hindsight, bash you stock that feeling?

BRETT MCGURK: I bash not, and no- nary one's been capable to constituent to maine to a infinitesimal successful which we could person ended this warfare without the hostages. The warfare would not person stopped without the hostages. I don't- I don't judge that. And I deliberation it's important to benignant of truly spell done the history, arsenic the publication does. And if I could conscionable intermission on- connected erstwhile we did person a hostage deal. About a period into the war, we had- we had a woody with Hamas–not easy, I described what it was similar to get it–for each women and children. It's precise clear, each women and children hostages are going to travel out, and- successful speech for a fig of Palestinian prisoners. And we had a ceasefire for 8 days, and astir 100 hostages came out. I'm talking astir this with you here, Margaret, due to the fact that 3 of those women that did not travel out, due to the fact that connected the eighth day, Hamas said, "we're not going to merchandise the younger women, actually. We'll merchandise the young toddlers similar Abigail, the young American girl. We'll merchandise the 80-year-old grandmothers. We're going to clasp connected to the younger women." They said "We can't find them," which was wholly untrue.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Wasn't portion of the excuse that they were of subject property too?

BRETT MCGURK: No, they said some- they claimed that, but they said let's- let's support the ceasefire and speech astir the older men. And successful the book, I spell done this night, midnight present successful Washington, December 1st, and it's a motivation quandary, and this is what a hostage-taker does. Hamas is bully astatine this- Iran is- this is- they're masters astatine this. They enactment the motivation onus connected the different side. Do you skip the younger women, commencement talking astir older men, support the ceasefire, oregon accidental no, you broke the deal. Three of those women, Romi, Doron, and Emily, Margaret, came retired connected January 19th. I was really connected your programme and I broke the news--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --I remember.

BRETT MCGURK: --I learned that- I learned astir it–because I'd been up each night, they came out–in the greenish country here. One was taken from Nova Festival. Two were taken from their location successful Kafr Aza. Late 20's, 1 is 31 years old. They should person travel retired successful that November deal. Carmel and- and Eden, 2 different women, were aboriginal killed successful a passageway nether Rafah unneurotic with six hostages, including the American, Hersh Goldberg, which I still- So, and I'm precise wide successful the book–when that woody broke down successful November, due to the fact that Hamas would not merchandise those younger women, I thought we would beryllium capable to get to different woody sooner. One crushed we didn't is that we came nether monolithic attack, and I spell done that successful the book. In the adjacent 2 months, we're consumed with that, and I spell spot the Iranians successful Oman. But no, I bash not deliberation that determination was a mode to halt this warfare without the hostages. It had to beryllium a hostage deal, and it took a batch to get there. I spell done it successful the- successful the book.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Just connected that constituent of those women. Some of them, aft they were released, talked astir the intersexual assaults--

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: --that they experienced successful captivity. Is that wherefore the women, those young women, were held for truthful long?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, this got- that- that moment, and if you work the book, you're there. And I fto readers marque judgments. What would you bash successful this moment? We person a ceasefire. Eight days, the guns are silent. You person humanitarian assistance flowing passim Gaza. We person a woody for each women and children. Hamas says we're going to clasp connected to the younger women, and let's speech astir the older men. Some of the older men were successful their 80's. Do you say, okay, okay, let's- let's skip implicit the younger women and determination to the men? Israel was unanimous that they cannot bash that due to the fact that it'll- it'll beryllium the decease condemnation for the women, and fixed however immoderate of the younger women were believed to person been treated, arsenic you conscionable referred to. Why did they privation to clasp connected to the younger women? I deliberation Hamas thought they were their- they were their, arsenic Hamas would enactment it sometimes successful the negotiation, their astir precious cards, and--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Why?

BRETT MCGURK: I don't privation to deliberation astir however they were being treated. I mean, determination are galore many testimonials now. Hamas wanted to clasp connected to them, and they thought they could get the highest terms for immoderate of them. I mean, ultimately, for women soldiers, it was 50- the keys, the nomenclature is: this is the keys, an speech ratio for women soldiers [was] 50 beingness condemnation Hamas, beingness condemnation Palestinian prisoners, often who person killed galore Israelis. They got the most- they got the astir keys for the women.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Just to clarify that, determination were literally, like, mathematical equations determination of what 1 Israeli was worthy successful presumption of Palestinians who could beryllium released from detention, not needfully from prisons, but from detention.

BRETT MCGURK: Both.

MARGARET BRENNAN: That's the key. From some places.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, this dialog was- I mean, I- I don't deliberation it has been--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --It was a ratio.

BRETT MCGURK: --so tedious and negotiated down to the idiosyncratic names, and a ratio for however galore prisoners for an older man, however galore prisoners for a pistillate soldier, and Hamas played with this each the time, each the mode down to the precise extremity of the negotiation, wherever they threw successful a wrench astatine the extremity for adjacent civilian, sick and wounded hostages. They enactment a caller request connected the array for 300 beingness condemnation prisoners, which had ne'er been- those are all- beingness condemnation prisoners were- was the cardinal for soldiers, and Hamas changed that astatine the end. But I bring this- I bring it backmost to this due to the fact that I deliberation immoderate of these facts person been mislaid successful the horrific quality of this crisis, which is truthful polarizing and truthful difficult. But Romi, Emily, and Doron should person travel retired successful November. The woody was unequivocal. And they didn't. Carmel and Eden should person travel out, and they were aboriginal killed by Hamas successful a passageway nether Rafah. And I spell backmost to that November woody a lot, and- and could we person done thing otherwise to support that connected track? And it's precise tragic. But to your question, I- no, I bash not deliberation determination was a mode to extremity this situation without- without the hostages. And- and I've told immoderate of the hostages that person travel out, Keith and others, I deliberation Hamas intended to clasp connected to hostages for- for galore years.

MARGARET BRENNAN: In bid to enactment successful power.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, definitely.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Which yet they inactive are, conscionable Yahya Sinwar and his household are not. But let's- let's speech about- you mentioned however polarizing this contented is. You person worked for some Republicans and Democrats. You are a nationalist information authoritative here, but each of what you were trying to bash was happening astatine the aforesaid clip arsenic the American governmental rhythm here–a statesmanlike election. And determination appeared to beryllium unquestioning U.S. enactment for Israel and providing subject enactment to Israel, and this became a governmental issue, peculiarly among Democrats. Then, the Republican candidates, including now-President Donald Trump, were criticizing that you weren't beardown capable successful enactment of Israel. How alert were you of the authorities of the infinitesimal arsenic you're making decisions similar this?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, arsenic you said, Margaret, I- I'm precise independent. I've worked with Republican presidents, Democratic presidents. I was a instrumentality clerk for 2 judges appointed by Republicans, 1 by a Democrat. And- but fto maine bring you into the Oval Office successful benignant of, successful a country successful which I deliberation encapsulates this precise issue. April 4th, 2024. President Biden, it's his reelect- he's- he's connected the run trail, evidently frustrated astir the situation, incapable to articulate due to the fact that the hostage talks person present collapsed. They had precocious collapsed for a fig of reasons I spell done successful the book. He's frustrated by being incapable to constituent to however are we really going to effort to bring this to a close. We had a horrific airstrike from the Israelis that killed 9 assistance workers with World Central Kitchen, Jose Andres--

MARGARET BRENNAN: An Israeli drone--

BRETT MCGURK: --and which was truthful trag--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --hit the clearly-marked convoy.

BRETT MCGURK: --so horrific. And, truthful we person a telephone betwixt Biden and Netanyahu, and Biden is just, like, wholly fed up. And astatine the aforesaid time, however, Iran is readying to launch- we person quality that Iran is astir to motorboat a monolithic ballistic rocket drone onslaught straight against Israel, which is wholly unprecedented, and- which if those missiles get through, you're talking astir thousands of casualties. So this is how, benignant of, everything converges. And I deliberation astatine that moment, if not for that impending rocket attack, which we past had to deploy subject forces, we built an unprecedented conjugation with Arab partners, European partners, and of people the U.S. subject and General Kurilla, who was benignant of putting this together. If not for that, I deliberation connected that- that moment, I deliberation we would person taken immoderate beauteous draconian measures against Israel.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Really?

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, I bash not--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Draconian how? What bash you mean?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, I deliberation we would have-- you conscionable mentioned cutting disconnected weapons and different things. That was precise overmuch connected the table. But besides astatine that clip successful April, Congress, bipart- a monolithic bipartisan bulk approved a $26 cardinal assistance bundle for- for Israel, close successful April, close successful that moment. So to enactment this- I effort to bring readers present into the immediacy of the existent infinitesimal and what was happening. But the the absorption precise rapidly shifts to however bash we support Israel from this- from this rocket attack, It ended up being 120 ballistic missiles, 170 drones, 30 cruise missiles, all- each launched to onshore astatine the aforesaid time. I described that successful the Situation Room, that moment, and conscionable what that was like.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And ultimately, the United States and each of these determination partners and allies support Israel from that incoming attack, and it was a beauteous bonzer effort. But connected the World Central Kitchen event, origin that- radical retrieve that. There was outrage astir that. You wrote that President Biden told Bibi Netanyahu, the Prime Minister, that helium could, successful theory, "cut Israel from subject assistance astatine a digit snap," leaving Israel connected its own. "You deliberation I'm Santa Claus? No Santa successful Israel, pal."

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But helium didn't. He didn't cut.

BRETT MCGURK: Well, I mean, we--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Did helium really mean that arsenic a threat?

BRETT MCGURK: We selectively- we talked astir it successful that- successful the Oval Office astir that time. We selectively, aft that call, the president stopped each income and deliveries of dense payload munitions, 2000-pound bombs. We- we stopped--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, helium delayed them, ultimately.

BRETT MCGURK: Well, we- we didn't- we didn't present them and we didn't o.k. immoderate different sales. President Trump reversed that instantly aft coming into office. We selectively paused limb systems that could person been utilized successful the West Bank by Itamar Ben-Gvir--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Some extremist members of--

BRETT MCGURK: --given issues successful the West Bank--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --the Israeli government.

BRETT MCGURK: So it was a selective- it was a selective use. But I think- and I- I cognize this is- this is evidently a statement now, and I deliberation the question you person to ask, and what I ever asked, and- and the taxable runs retired passim the book. Would a definite step, immoderate it is, assistance trim quality suffering successful Gaza and assistance facilitate an extremity of the war? And that is the cardinal question, the cardinal test. And erstwhile we did a UN Security Council solution calling for a ceasefire without the hostages, it really acceptable the process of- acceptable the talks back. Hamas leaders went to Tehran close aft that and fundamentally hardened down. When we accrued nationalist unit connected Israel, you could spot Sinwar benignant of backing off. So this is the quality betwixt backstage pressure, which the president was doing determination connected that call, and- and overmuch much nationalist measures. Because the nationalist statements are work by each the different actors successful this crisis, Margaret. And the actors are not conscionable Biden and Netanyahu, it is Khamenei and Nasrallah and Sinwar and everybody else.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The Iranian leaders, the Hezbollah leaders--

BRETT MCGURK: Right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: --all the players are parsing each word.

BRETT MCGURK: Right, and remember, Israel besides has 1 of the largest arms industries successful the world, truthful the- the thought that had Biden gone further connected a measurement connected that course, it would person stopped the war- I conscionable deliberation the grounds does not enactment that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, and of course, Republicans criticized adjacent the thought of the delay--

BRETT MCGURK: Well, the House- the House voted with- the House voted to reverse it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.

BRETT MCGURK: Actually, yeah. So I deliberation put- enactment each this together- I accidental successful the book, if determination was an easier way for the president to instrumentality to extremity this crisis, helium would person taken it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But- but I bring this up due to the fact that it continues to beryllium a unrecorded contented now, peculiarly connected the left, and it was an- an contented that became truthful politically heated successful 2024, and it drew successful members of the nationalist information team. I mean, it was February 2024, the medication sent retired to the precise cardinal authorities of Michigan, wherever there's a precise ample Arab-American and Jewish population, the Deputy National Security Advisor Jon Finer, who told members of the Arab assemblage helium was alert of missteps, including "a precise damaging content based connected what has been a wholly inadequate nationalist accounting for however overmuch the president, the administration, and the state values the lives of Palestinians." He said that began "pretty aboriginal successful the conflict." Do- bash you hold that that was a mistake?

BRETT MCGURK: I--

MARGARET BRENNAN: That Biden didn't amusement empathy, is what he's saying, for civilians, peculiarly Palestinians who were caught successful the midst of this horrific warfare betwixt Hamas and Israel.

BRETT MCGURK: I conscionable know- what I deliberation Jon would person been talking astir determination is that this is thing that- I picture it similar a teardrop successful your psyche moving connected this and trying to bring it to a resolution. But I deliberation the clip sequencing is important, and I anticipation immoderate broadside of the contented you mightiness beryllium on, if you work this book, and I don't- I- the scholar tin marque its ain judgments of what was happening astatine the- astatine peculiar times. In February, that's the clip framework you conscionable mentioned, we conscionable had 3 Americans killed successful a- successful an Iranian drone onslaught occurrence by Kata'ib Hezbollah, their- their marquee militia radical successful Iraq, straight targeting our surviving quarters. It wounded dozens of Americans and killed 3 soldiers connected January 28, and that came aft a bid of escalating attacks against our people, trying to termination Americans. I went to spot the Iranians successful January, successful Oman, each astir this. The attacks continued to escalate, and President Biden, successful aboriginal February, ordered the largest airstrikes, Margaret, since aboriginal successful the Iraq War and besides ordered airstrikes against an Iranian commandant successful Iraq. I was- truthful I papers each this and explicate it, and I accidental that conscionable due to the fact that the- the situation successful its aggregate dimensions was truthful determination successful scope, and what the president had connected his caput perpetually was trying to forestall an all-out determination war.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.

BRETT MCGURK: I mean determination was, you know, headlines "We're connected the verge of all-out determination war," and 1 crushed the publication is called Brink, arsenic I mentioned, is due to the fact that we were oftentimes connected the brink of an all-out war, and I spell done those moments. But anyway, I- I can't talk to precisely what Jon was talking astir there. Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that indispensable have- I mean, he's the Deputy National Security Advisor. You indispensable person had these debates.

BRETT MCGURK: Well, Jon's a- Jon's a adjacent workfellow of mine.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.

BRETT MCGURK: He ran the- helium ran the Deputies Committee meeting. I mean, everybody successful the U.S. authorities had their- had their views expressed successful the Deputies Committee meeting. The question ever was, however bash we bring this to a close? Period. How bash you- again, you can't conscionable accidental extremity the war. You can't conscionable accidental incorporate it and don't person a regional--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.

BRETT MCGURK: --conflict, bring the hostages home. How bash you really bash it? And the- and the- Sinwar is holding the hostages. He volition not merchandise the hostages until, what? How bash you get him to a yes on- connected presumption that tin beryllium accepted besides by the Israelis.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but the president made a precise large point–and you were talking astir the nationalist versus backstage message. The president made this precise large constituent of going and giving a carnivore hug to Prime Minister Netanyahu to say: the U.S. and Israel, there's nary daylight here, we are with you, determination is American enactment for you defending yourself. And it seems similar determination is an acknowledgement that determination was not the nationalist asterisk: but by the way, this civilian casualty number is acold excessively high. At slightest it didn't travel from the president himself. Do you hold with that?

BRETT MCGURK: I don't. I deliberation the president- the fearfulness of this war, the fearfulness of October 7th, and the fearfulness successful Gaza, genuinely hellhole connected earth, and thing diminishes the lives lost. But you- you're talking determination astir the president's travel to- to Israel successful particular, and fto maine springiness an anecdote due to the fact that it's important. I picture this as, I've ne'er seen a worse backdrop to a military- was going to beryllium a subject battle, ever. Hamas spent 20 years gathering subject infrastructure nether Gaza. You've known maine a agelong time, Margaret. I was successful the antagonistic ISIS campaign. I was successful Mosul. I saw it up close. Nothing similar this. And we instantly said- the president said, "Where are the civilians going to go?" And--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Because this is 25 miles, Gaza's small.

BRETT MCGURK: Very small. It's highly tiny. I deliberation Americans who haven't been to Israel oregon been there, they don't recognize however tiny everything is.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So you driblet a 2,000-pound bomb, and that's going to person a blast radius that kills civilians.

BRETT MCGURK: We privation to get civilians retired of harm's way. In Mosul, we got a cardinal civilians out. There were inactive galore near there--

MARGARET BRENNAN: You're talking astir successful Iraq, with the ISIS fight--

BRETT MCGURK: --and- and successful Syria, 6 cardinal Syrians near the civilian war. This is- successful Gaza, determination was obscurity for radical to go. I- I called Abbas Kamel, the intel main of Egypt, said, "Look, we got to find a mode to let Gazans astatine slightest to travel temporarily into- into Sinai." Answer is perfectly not. The president connected that trip--

[CROSSTALK]

MARGARET BRENNAN: Egypt refused--

BRETT MCGURK: --this is wherefore this is important--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --to instrumentality them. Mmhmm.

[END CROSSTALK]

BRETT MCGURK: The President connected that travel was going to Amman- to Amman first. About 8 days into the war, president wants to spell to Israel. I explicate wherefore helium wanted to spell to Israel astatine a captious moment. We're going to halt successful Amman to spot King Abdullah, to spot Mahmoud Abbas, the caput of the Palestinian Authority, and President Sisi to person this discussion. And unfortunately, that travel was pulled down due to the fact that the time we were leaving, determination was an air- looked similar an airstrike astatine a hospital, Al-Ahli Hospital, and determination were headlines that an Israeli airstrike killed 500 Palestinians–turned retired not to beryllium true. But due to the fact that of that, King Abdullah said, "please don't come." We understood why, and we lone went to Israel, and we did not person that- that engagement. I deliberation the- this is- the information that successful Gaza civilians had obscurity to truly instrumentality shelter, the underground facilities were lone for Hamas, they made that precise clear. And adjacent erstwhile the Israelis said, let's- erstwhile they gave america a map, you know, "let's- we volition state this country a harmless zone."

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

BRETT MCGURK: It's Mawasi, and--

MARGARET BRENNAN: You constitute astir this.

BRETT MCGURK: --and the UN refused to enactment with them connected that, arsenic did we, due to the fact that we said, "No, no, you can't, you- you can't benignant of unit radical into a definite area." But past it was like, wherever are radical going to go? So the full backdrop to this is truthful horrific, and- and it took a monolithic toll connected civilian life, and it took a monolithic toll on- connected Israeli soldiers arsenic well, arsenic I speech about. It was a existent war.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean, you motion to immoderate regret successful that incident. You said [about] that declaration of a harmless zone, you regret that the U.S. wasn't "more creative," arsenic you enactment it, "in moving with Israel connected an imperfect solution" to humanitarian corridors.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean, are you saying it was a delusion to deliberation determination was a cleanable solution, oregon bash you deliberation determination truly was much that could person been done?

BRETT MCGURK: I- I think, precise imperfect mechanisms to get civilians retired of harm's way, that the UN and others could person supported. Often, everybody is benignant of connected the- connected the sidelines, saying the warfare should halt somehow. But without like- let's think, however tin we really get civilians retired of harm's way? Now the Israelis did archer radical to move, and they did it benignant of connected their own. But they did- they got nary assistance from that, from the UN, oregon others. They would conscionable not adjacent beryllium a portion of encouraging radical to determination oregon to mounting up harmless areas--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Claiming it would look to beryllium forced displacement.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, and- and moving with the Israelis and each the past here, which I spell successful in the books. I- but the- it comes backmost to the halfway question of, fixed Hamas has this underground subject infrastructure, how- the- the run is going to beryllium truthful destructive. That's what acrophobic maine from the start. I saw not Mosul and Raqqa, which you did not person this underground infrastructure or, you know, decennary oregon truthful to prepare. It's perfectly awful.

MARGARET BRENNAN: It was Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen who benignant of forced the manus of the medication successful publically reporting immoderate of the U.S. assessments of however Israel was utilizing the U.S.-provided weapons, due to the fact that nether U.S. law, they person to beryllium compliant with American standards. And Secretary Blinken came connected Face the Nation soon aft the study was released, and we had Senator Van Hollen connected aft him. Van Hollen said the medication ducked the hard questions. They didn't supply an "unvarnished relationship of facts and the law," and has set, arsenic a standard, a "very, precise debased bar, a precise debased modular for what is acceptable." He said it volition travel backmost to haunt the United States. In hindsight, bash you deliberation helium has a constituent there? That not being much fact-driven and making this accusation public, oregon interest astir however U.S. munitions were used, that it could hurt, successful the longer term, U.S. credibility?

BRETT MCGURK: I deliberation I- I- that effort from Senator Van Hollen and the State Department study that came out- I picture it- I mean, I'm mostly, astatine that time, I'm overseas trying to get this- this hostage woody going on. But I commencement the publication with a gathering successful the- successful the Situation Room, astir 2 weeks near successful the Biden administration, astir this question, astir to instrumentality much measures against Israel oregon not. And again, my- came down to, successful my view, and I person to say, the, you know, the lawyers who acceptable the- acceptable the array would picture the ineligible parameters, and it was ever a argumentation call. And successful that peculiar scene, again, we're adjacent to a deal. If you privation to halt the war, you person to get a deal. And is the measurement connected the array going to determination you person to getting a woody oregon not? I mean, that was a very- to me, the lone mode to halt this warfare was a deal. So I don't- I- I can't take- I haven't seen that nonstop punctuation of what Senator Van Hollen was talking astir successful that clip frame. I retrieve that debate, but I travel backmost to, however bash you really extremity this war? And it was yet a ceasefire deal.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it was specified a nationalist statement astatine the clip astir America's relation successful the world, the standards America is held to, and whether America is complicit successful however our weapons are used. And nether the Leahy Law, arsenic you know, you know, countries that person U.S. weapons person to debar committing quality rights violations oregon hazard losing the weapons supply. Blinken said "it was tenable to assess, successful definite instances, Israel has not acted successful a mode that's accordant with planetary humanitarian law," and that Israeli civilian harm mitigation efforts were "inconsistent, ineffective, and inadequate." Do you hold with that State Department memo?

BRETT MCGURK: I deliberation the Leahy Law applies to idiosyncratic units, and broadly speaking, that's wherefore it's not- nary assistance to immoderate state is unconditional, including- including to Israel, and- but information assistance is a- is simply a complex, multi-institutional, multi-branch endeavor. And again, these- astir of these appropriations were appropriated by monolithic bipartisan majorities successful Congress astatine the time. But- and the State Department has a role, and the Pentagon has an important role.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. He was saying deed the brakes connected deliveries. Or re-examine--

BRETT MCGURK: Again, we- we deed the brakes connected some- connected immoderate deliveries selectively. But to person a broad-based stoppage of- of support–again, for Israel astatine a time- I don't cognize what the clip framework was for that statement, but I can--

MARGARET BRENNAN: That was successful May--

BRETT MCGURK: So successful May--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --2024.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah. So successful May we conscionable had the largest ballistic rocket and drone onslaught ever successful history. We- but fto maine laic this out. So May. That's wherefore the clip framework and chronology is truthful important. Having lived done this, I retrieve it rather well. Largest ballistic rocket onslaught successful history. We assistance the Israelis decision it. We accidental to Netanyahu- Biden's punctuation successful that gathering is "I conscionable saved your ass." We're getting backmost to the hostage deal, okay? We walk the period of May putting unneurotic a elaborate four-page, three-phase agreement, azygous spaced, each item there. We spell to the Israelis and to Netanyahu and say, "we request you to motion up." And it went precise acold successful the absorption of Hamas. Frankly, it was a amended woody for Hamas than what they person close now. And Netanyahu connected May 27th signed connected to that deal. On May 31st- due to the fact that what were we doing successful May? On May 31st, President Biden laid retired that woody to the satellite successful a speech, and helium said, "Israel has accepted this deal. Hamas, accidental yes. Let's extremity this war." U.N. Security Council endorses that deal. It's May 31st. What happens? In aboriginal June, aft this is connected the table–we tin halt the warfare close present if Hamas says yes–Khamenei, Supreme Leader of Iran, gives a defiant code praising October- October 7th, and fundamentally Iran is telling Hamas to not- to not compromise successful immoderate of the terms. Hezbollah launches its largest onslaught of the war, 250 rockets into bluish Israel. This is erstwhile we person a ceasefire woody connected the table. We don't get an reply from Hamas until July 2nd, astir 5 weeks later, and they enactment each sorts of things successful it that acceptable the talks back. So, I- I accidental this due to the fact that we were moving to extremity this situation and extremity this war, and- successful May, June, and we had the woody connected the array to bash it. My attack would have- is, this woody is connected the array to halt the war. All pressure, everything, public, everything other has to travel down connected Hamas and their enablers to accidental yes to extremity this deal, oregon to extremity this war. But Hamas did not accidental yes, and they kept stringing america out, and they would enactment an contented connected the table, past Israel would instrumentality a hard position. But that's what was happening successful May, and if you spell to that, you know, Biden goes to the world, says this is the deal. He had a telephone telephone with, I think, 18 heads of authorities due to the fact that these hostages are from countries each astir the world. They each said- they called connected Hamas to instrumentality the deal, and Hamas did not instrumentality the deal. And we were moving astatine that clip to extremity the warfare done a deal, and I think, again, each vectors of unit should person been connected Sinwar to accidental yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you're not saying--

BRETT MCGURK: And the warfare would person stopped.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You're not saying that the Democratic Party unit and calling retired compliance with U.S. instrumentality was enabling Hamas. That's not what you're saying?

BRETT MCGURK: No, no, no. And I'm besides not--

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you're saying it's almost, like, naive?

BRETT MCGURK: And I'm besides not getting into interior enactment debates, I've ne'er been a portion of that. I'll let- I'll fto governmental parties person their- person their debates. Not my relation astatine all. I travel backmost to the question: How bash you extremity this crisis? And I deliberation the grounds shows if you conscionable halt American enactment for Israel. That is not going to extremity the crisis. It's going to marque it worse.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you deliberation adjacent conscionable a connection that was much definitive connected that would person been damaging?

BRETT MCGURK: No, we made- I mean, I- we made a batch of statements. We did U.N. Security Council resolutions, we did a fig of things, which I deliberation there's a- there's a real--

MARGARET BRENNAN: But this- this full governmental statement astatine that clip with the National Security Memorandum that was made public. It was, like, 5 retired of 8 State Department groups said, you know, fundamentally they were not compliant with U.S. law. But you work it, and it's benignant of, it looks similar American diplomats are going retired of their mode not to accidental it directly, successful bid to debar taking enactment that would effect successful the cutting disconnected of aid.

BRETT MCGURK: I don't know. I- I--

MARGARET BRENNAN: It looks similar the authorities were influencing the policy, and I conjecture that's what I'm asking you to reply to.

BRETT MCGURK: I can't- the- the State- that State Department memo that was- that was done, again, astatine the petition of Senator Van Hollen, and the Senate has its ain dynamics for asking america to bash definite things to support votes disconnected the level that Senator Van Hollen mightiness person wanted to take. But no, I thought that was, from what I understand, that was a precise rigorous exercise. But had that memo said thing differently, would that person ended the war? Would that person eased the humanitarian suffering successful Gaza? Would it person gotten hostages home? No. I mean, that is where- like, that memo is truthful divorced, successful my view, from the gritty, atrocious world of however bash you really instrumentality hostages and extremity a war? I mean, and I- this is not a publication astir meetings successful Washington. I've work a batch of books similar that. I said this successful this meeting. No- immoderate of that. This is simply a publication astir being successful the mediate of it, overseas, wherever you're successful the country with conscionable the 2 oregon 3 radical that tin really get thing done, and- and trying to execute the nonsubjective that everybody successful Washington wants, and trying to really execute that nonsubjective is exceedingly hard. And immoderate that memo mightiness person said, oregon immoderate thing mightiness person been said successful Congress, is that going to execute the nonsubjective we're trying to achieve? I deliberation the reply is no. So I- I travel backmost to conscionable what it takes to really halt thing similar this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And- and we had immoderate of those hostage families and advocates connected Face the Nation passim the situation who were appealing to the American president to enactment focused connected the hostages due to the fact that they were frustrated that the Israeli authorities was not, and that Hamas was not interested. So I perceive you connected that. Let maine conscionable enactment a good constituent connected the contented present due to the fact that I privation you to beryllium capable to respond to this. There's different caller publication retired astir the Biden administration's handling of Israel's warfare successful Gaza. It's written by Akbar Shahid Ahmed. He makes immoderate precise circumstantial claims astir things that you said and did. One medication authoritative told him you seemed to beryllium acting arsenic Israel's lawyer erstwhile you were discussing IDF actions successful October 2024. That you saw pictures of famine successful aboriginal 2024, and you said radical successful Gaza did not look skinny. There are different claims successful here, that your sanction was turned into a verb. Humanitarian officials were utilized to what 1 USAID staffer referred to arsenic "getting McGurk'd," which meant overruling assistance experts connected Gaza. That sounds similar a batch of interior disagreement. Were you alert of this?

BRETT MCGURK: I haven't work that book. That's categorically false. I've never- I've ne'er said thing similar that. And successful fact, and I deliberation those who were actually- whether it was David Satterfield oregon others successful complaint of the humanitarian response, ever knew if you request thing done, you know, springiness maine a call. I talked to David aggregate times a time erstwhile helium was the humanitarian coordinator. That is categorically mendacious and conscionable implicit fiction.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Because this contented lives connected present successful our politics, peculiarly among progressive Democrats. I mean, Gaza, cutting disconnected U.S. assistance to Israel oregon reducing it, and connected the right, we're proceeding much astir that arsenic well. Has it amazed you that, like, the authorities of this infinitesimal proceed to beryllium truthful infused with what happened then?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, I deliberation on- you know, again, connected the- connected the assistance question, there's 1 happening getting assistance into- into Gaza, which we're precise focused on, and pushing the Israelis on, and past really distributing it passim Gaza, which is- which is relation for the U.N., and determination was similar astir been a breakdown there. It was incredibly frustrating, but no, I- my- my occupation was to effort to bring this warfare to a close. And the mode to bring it to a adjacent was to get an statement that included the merchandise of the hostages. It's all- it's intertwined. You're not going to trim quality suffering, and you're not going to person assistance flowing passim Gaza similar you request without a ceasefire, and you're not going to person a ceasefire without the hostages. This was conscionable the- the awful, gritty world of the- of the situation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You wrote about- you motion reasonably diplomatically to immoderate disagreements wrong the medication astatine the time, but you constitute during this play of time- you're referring to January 2024 oregon so. You write: "During this period, I felt retired of sorts with immoderate of my colleagues, who seemed to instrumentality a two-dimensional presumption of the crisis, focused solely connected Gaza and not the determination menace that Iran had unleashed, and which each time risked American lives." Who were you reasoning of there? Why- wherefore did you constitute that?

BRETT MCGURK: That was January, and the clip framework is important. That was January 2024.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.

BRETT MCGURK: We travel nether onslaught after- betwixt October 7 and extremity of the year, attacks against america summation astir sevenfold. Almost each time we person attacks against us. It's precise wide the attacks are intended to termination Americans. On Christmas Day, we person 3 wounded Americans successful bluish Iraq, 1 with Iranian shrapnel done his brain. Attack- Houthi attacks commencement against American ships, including against U.S. naval ships. These are anti-ship ballistic missiles going Mach 4, archetypal clip they've ever been utilized successful combat. What I'm proceeding from our subject radical is, "What are we doing astir this?" Every azygous day. And what's keeping maine up successful this clip is I'm going to aftermath up, and we're going to person 2 twelve dormant American sailors successful the Red Sea, oregon we're going to person 2 twelve dormant American soldiers successful Iraq and Syria. And the attacks kept coming, and we had a telephone with President Biden connected New Year's Day, talking astir however to respond. And we had the Iranian commander, I telephone him Mohsen successful the book, we knew who helium was, we benignant of- we were adjacent to his location, and I thought we should people him, to halt and deter these attacks.

MARGARET BRENNAN: A drone strike?

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah. President Biden successful that gathering asked me, "Can you spell spot the Iranians? Knock this off." And I did, I went- and I had met with the Iranians galore times implicit the years. I went to Oman connected January 10th. I had a gathering with the Iranians. I picture it successful item successful the publication with the Omanis [intermediating]. And I picture what's happening successful the region. We are nether onslaught successful Iraq. We're nether onslaught successful Syria,. We're nether onslaught successful the Red Sea. It's lone by the accomplishment of our subject personnel, our defenses, that we person not had dozens of American dormant and wounded, and this has to stop, oregon we're heading for nonstop confrontation.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you can't get the president to act--

BRETT MCGURK: Well, helium wanted--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --You were frustrated.

BRETT MCGURK: --to effort to instrumentality this diplomatic path, and the Iranians successful that gathering were complete- were- I picture it successful detail, wholly rejected having thing to bash with this, which was total- a full lie.

MARGARET BRENNAN: They wouldn't beryllium crossed from you even. You're passing notes.

BRETT MCGURK: You're doing intermedia-, akin to now, what is inactive happening. So that- those talks failed. We started strikes against the Houthis, actually, the adjacent time aft that gathering failed. But past successful January, the clip frame, we travel und- each azygous day, and I papers this. And connected January 28th, we person the 3 Americans and dozens of wounded from an Iranian drone. Yeah, my absorption successful that period was deterring these attacks and- and deterring what Iran had unleashed, including against us. That was my over- due to the fact that I- what was keeping maine up was, "We're going to person dormant Americans," and past we did person dormant Americans, and President Biden ordered a onslaught connected Mohsen and different militia leaders that night, and the attacks stopped.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the president was truthful acrophobic astir avoiding a determination war.

BRETT MCGURK: The president, successful his usage of subject power, Margaret, was precise deliberate. We're- we're successful this determination crisis. And helium utilized to say–and this relates to the existent moment–he utilized to accidental the American radical recognize the usage of unit to support our people, and benignant of a existent core, captious American interest. They volition not- they volition not recognize if we're being sucked into a broader Middle East warfare oregon reacting connected behalf of Israel. It was a enactment helium drew successful his pulse of the American radical and his relation arsenic Commander successful Chief. It was an important enactment to draw. And helium ordered, I mean, a decisive usage of unit successful that incidental successful February, but helium was- and, and defending Israel doubly against nonstop ballistic rocket attacks. But helium was precise deliberate, and helium said it successful a fig of these meetings, which I speech astir successful the book, about- astir drafting that enactment precise carefully.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you speech astir "feeling retired of sorts with immoderate of my colleagues."

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you going to archer america what was happening erstwhile you were having those disagreements? Who was arguing against defending these Americans?

BRETT MCGURK: There was an statement that if we people an Iranian officer–which is simply a large step, I admit it–that could unleash a broader escalation. I conscionable didn't hold with that. I thought we were- we were nether onslaught constantly. We had to really enactment to deter it. And 1 of the themes successful the publication is, Margaret, is that diplomacy, if not backed by power, is wholly feckless.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But your--

BRETT MCGURK: And this was- this was- this was playing in, also, to the hostage talks. I mean, Hamas was conscionable not adjacent consenting to prosecute due to the fact that they thought everything was benignant of going their way. You got Hezbollah barrages coming each time successful the north. You person the Houthis attacking commercialized and U.S. and U.K. naval vessels successful the Red Sea. You person Americans nether onslaught astir each time successful Iraq. And until we contained that and stopped it, it was precise hard to spot a mode guardant connected the- connected the Gaza talks. It was all- each interrelated. So my consuming focus–I afloat admit it successful the book–in this period, was stopping those attacks, and I thought to halt those attacks we had to usage subject force.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But astir that aforesaid time, successful January 2024, Israel bombs Syria, sidesplitting an Iranian subject advisor. In April, strikes Iranian diplomatic ngo successful Syria. In July, strikes Tehran and kills the apical Hamas leader. Then that stunning cognition to instrumentality retired Hezbollah leaders with the exploding pagers. And sidesplitting Hezbollah's person Hassan Nasrallah. On that peculiar strike, the U.S. didn't get a heads up.

BRETT MCGURK: Let's speech astir immoderate of those.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah, but that seems to beryllium a building- the Israeli authorities doing the happening President Biden was saying don't do, which is hazard a determination war.

BRETT MCGURK: Let's speech astir some- immoderate of those. Mohammad Reza Zahedi, helium was the Quds Force officer, Margaret, that was killed successful that onslaught successful Damascus, April 1, 2024, aforesaid time arsenic the World Central Kitchen attack. Who is Mohammad Reza Zahedi? He is the caput of the Quds Force portion that enables and supplies Hezbollah. Hezbollah is firing into Israel each azygous day--

MARGARET BRENNAN: From Lebanon.

BRETT MCGURK: --From Lebanon. A onslaught against Mohammad Reza Zahedi, successful our view, was a precise morganatic self-defense strike. The Iranians said helium was successful a compound of the- of their embassy successful Damascus. That's really ne'er been demonstrated. But successful immoderate event, the Iranians attacked our embassy. I was astatine our embassy successful Baghdad aggregate times, wherever they launched- their militias launched rockets astatine our embassy. We did not respond by firing 200 ballistic missiles into- into Iran. That's however Iran responded to that- to that attack. The Lebanon cognition that the Israelis conducted opening successful September came aft the implicit breakdown of the- of the hostage talks. And due to the fact that dates matter, we- we had a- we had an connection connected the table, Margaret, connected August 16th, endorsed by, you mentioned the Emir of Qatar, Tamim, afloat endorsed 100% by Sisi. It went adjacent further successful the absorption of Hamas. On April 16th, we ne'er got an answer, and on- astatine the extremity of the month, we had six dormant hostages in- successful a passageway underneath Rafah. And that's erstwhile that full process conscionable wholly collapsed, and Israel went northbound into Lebanon. And erstwhile I look astatine this past now, and you benignant of piece- it was aft Yahya Sinwar was killed connected October 16. It was aft we defeated a 2nd Iranian rocket onslaught successful October. It was aft Hezbollah chopped a ceasefire woody that determination was an opening for the ceasefire to extremity the warfare successful Gaza. It was the determination equilibrium of powerfulness changing that opened the way to yet getting this- getting this deal.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But I bring up those bid of events due to the fact that the deficiency of heads up to the United States signals immoderate increasing distrust betwixt the United States and Israel astatine that constituent successful time.

BRETT MCGURK: Sure.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I mean Israel gave a heads up arsenic the cognition to termination Hassan Nasrallah was underway. Were you upset that determination wasn't much beforehand notice?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, the Zahedi strike, I picture successful the- successful the book, did get an advance- I got a announcement from- from the Israelis conscionable earlier walking into a concern country meeting. I picture that successful immoderate detail. I deliberation you're right, the Nasrallah onslaught the Israelis took, they didn't springiness america a heads up connected that. That doesn't peculiarly astonishment me, honestly. The Haniyeh quality cognition successful Tehran, which I besides speech astir successful the book, we did not person a heads up on, but it was an quality cognition successful Tehran. This is not thing that, like, Bibi Netanyahu tin conscionable say, "Hey, let's spell aft Haniyeh successful Tehran." This is thing that takes months of preparation, and- and it's a benignant of a you- the stars align, and you- you instrumentality the enactment oregon you don't. But successful galore ways, those steps really helped america unfastened the way to ending the warfare successful Gaza.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the- well, it changed the dynamic successful the Middle East, enactment Iran connected the backmost ft successful galore ways, but I- I bring it up excessively due to the fact that determination is this perception- you know, astatine 1 point, I deliberation it was the New Yorker**, quoted General Austin, then-Secretary of Defense, arsenic saying that the Netanyahu authorities felt that it was playing with location money, that they knew America would beryllium determination nary substance what, truthful they could up the level of hazard adjacent if President Biden wasn't blessed with it. Did you consciousness similar you were stuck successful the mediate of that dynamic wherever it was- the presumption was America was going to enactment it nary substance what, and that they weren't needfully going to perceive to U.S. counsel?

BRETT MCGURK: Well, Netanyahu thought and believed, and has said publicly, helium thought we chopped disconnected their weapons. So--

[CROSSTALK]

MARGARET BRENNAN: Back erstwhile we were talking astir the--

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah. And helium since has said that Biden had a--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --the Santa Clause notation that you constitute about.

BRETT MCGURK: --that Biden enactment an arms embargo connected us. And helium inactive believes that--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Which was not true.

[END CROSSTALK]

BRETT MCGURK: No, it's not true. But successful presumption of these peculiar operations successful this broader war, that I mean, why, wherefore was determination this Hezbollah confrontation aft October 7th? Because Hezbollah, connected October 8th, started a warfare into bluish Israel. Iran turned this full happening up. It was a tragic mistake they made aft the October 7th attacks. And I picture this successful detail. We did not person accusation that Iran knew astir the Hamas attack, but aft that attack, they sensed a vulnerability against Israel, and they turned connected each their proxies, and it continued to benignant of escalate up the ladder, and past Israel is responding to- to that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And I deliberation what I'm proceeding you accidental is you deliberation President Biden's not fixed recognition for stopping these things exploding into a determination warfare astatine once. He's not getting recognition for the happening helium prevented.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, it's not astir credit--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --Is that right?

BRETT MCGURK: --What I effort to bash here, I don't accidental successful the book- recognition oregon not. You're determination successful the Situation Room with President Biden aft we decision 1 of the largest rocket attacks astatine that constituent successful history. You tin perceive everything helium says. You are there, actually, successful the Oval Office, I was overseas and dialed successful soon aft the president learned astir that quality cognition successful Tehran against Haniyeh, and helium calls up Bibi Netanyahu. So a scholar volition perceive precisely what happened in- successful those moments. And no, I don't deliberation it was simply, you know, Netanyahu took- took things for granted. It was a precise hard determination subject equation, quality equation, diplomatic equation, humanitarian equation, each of which is playing retired successful existent time.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, it's an incredibly analyzable acceptable of challenges each astatine once. I privation to get to Saudi Arabia successful a moment, but conscionable to fastener up connected Iran. On the atomic program. Biden's nationalist information advisor Jake Sullivan explained to Netanyahu erstwhile helium pitched going and bombing the atomic sites. He said it was, you know, of questionable legality and risky. But the medication was unanimous that if Iran was astir to marque a bomb, that the Biden medication would person gone and bombed. At that point, were you reasoning that, essentially, the warfare we're successful present was inevitable?

BRETT MCGURK: So, it's successful the book. I spell to Israel successful December, this is aft the election, with Jake. We spot Bibi Netanyahu. And we got him to motion connected to a cardinal word for the hostage deal, which is the absorption here. And helium said, "I deliberation we should instrumentality retired Fordow and the- and the atomic sites." And we were acrophobic aft the election, conscionable fixed immoderate things we were seeing, that Iran might- they were already enriching to 60 percent, and- and 90 percent is weapons-grade enrichment, and it's not- that's precise casual to do. That they mightiness marque a dash, and erstwhile you bash a dash, they person a canister of weapons-grade uranium, and you're truly successful a overmuch worse situation. We really had a principals committee meeting, that's everybody astir the table, what would we bash if we spot that?

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.

BRETT MCGURK: And arsenic I recall, unanimity connected we would bash the onslaught successful Fordow. We didn't spot that. We sent a connection to Iran, don't adjacent deliberation astir it. But yet Netanyahu was intelligibly contemplating that, and--

MARGARET BRENNAN: In the mediate of the hostage crisis.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, successful December of 2024.

MARGARET BRENNAN: He was reasoning astir bombing Iran.

BRETT MCGURK: And we said determination would beryllium no- unless we spot the Iranians moving successful that direction, and determination are questions of legality and everything else, that's ever been astir this issue. This- this onslaught against Fordow has been a, again, warfare crippled aggregate times. But yeah, you will- that speech is- is successful the publication successful December of 2024 with- with Netanyahu.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Because you diplomatically constituent retired that helium was much focused connected bombing Iran than the hostages. He pitched you, "why wait" until they contention for a bomb? Why not enactment now? You made the constituent that helium spoke with acold greater strength astir Iran than helium spoke astir the hostages. You sound--

BRETT MCGURK: True.

MARGARET BRENNAN: --pretty annoyed by that.

BRETT MCGURK: It's true, and yet successful that aforesaid meeting, successful that aforesaid gathering wherever each that's going on, we get Netanyahu to agree- this is aboriginal December 2024. If I person the database of hostages, if Hamas produces the list–there are 33 names that Israel had. If Hamas agrees to the database of 33 hostages, meaning we person to cognize the hostages who are coming retired successful the deal, I judge the deal. We got that from Netanyahu successful that meeting. And past each we needed- this gets backmost to this taxable we've talked astir here, Margaret, successful the past hr oregon so. All we needed astatine that infinitesimal to halt the warfare was an statement connected the database of hostages. And I picture successful the publication Hamas would not hold connected the database of hostages, and past they said, of the 33, lone 12 volition beryllium alive. And truthful again, everybody wants this warfare to end. You've mentioned radical with precise beardown views connected the issue. So you're there, mid-December 2024. You person a afloat hostage deal. Hamas says, "But we'll lone merchandise 12 hostages alive." And I'm sitting determination with Sheikh Mohammed. I person the database of hostages, Keith Siegel's connected the list--

MARGARET BRENNAN: The American.

BRETT MCGURK: --We tin get retired these 12 hostages, and the warfare volition stop. But what astir each the different hostages that Hamas is not putting connected the list, including Sagui Dekel-Chen, an American wounded doubly connected October 7th, Hamas is saying we don't see him wounded. What bash you bash successful that moment? Do you instrumentality the 12 successful hand, oregon bash you enactment down a harder enactment and accidental no, no, we request the afloat list, which was yet 25 surviving hostages? Eventually, it was aft New Year's, heading into 2025, Hamas produced the afloat list, but past they enactment much issues connected the table. I bring this up to say, this is however adjacent you are to ending the war. It's there. And successful that gathering on, connected Fordow, wherever yeah, Netanyahu was precise adamant connected the atomic threat, helium signed connected to this deal, truthful agelong arsenic we person the database of the hostages. And past erstwhile again, it's connected Hamas to- you privation to extremity the war? All we request is the hostage database from Hamas.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Ultimately, you speech astir January 19, 2025, connected Face the Nation erstwhile you yet were capable to denote that those 3 women, successful particular, were going to beryllium released by Hamas. But you constitute successful the publication a batch astir Steve Witkoff and what helium is similar arsenic a negotiator. You teamed up, actually, successful those last days. And helium said to you astatine immoderate constituent helium was really amazed you weren't talking straight to Hamas. He said, if I sell- "If a guy's selling maine a building…I look successful his eyes, face-to-face…only mode to bash a deal."

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: What did you accidental erstwhile helium asked you, "Why aren't you talking to Hamas?"

BRETT MCGURK: First, the communicative with Steve I deliberation is unsocial due to the fact that erstwhile President Trump won the election, if near to its ain devices here, Margaret, successful Washington these days, it would be, the Biden radical would accidental bully luck Trump folks, and the Trump radical would accidental we're not going to bash thing that the Biden radical said. Right aft the election, I called Jared Kushner, and I said, "look, you don't privation to travel into bureau with this Gaza happening inactive going on, and we got a accidental to get the hostages out," due to the fact that astatine that constituent Nasrallah is dead. We have- we're moving towards a ceasefire successful Lebanon, the full determination representation is changing. Yahya Sinwar is retired of the way, We conscionable defeated different rocket attack. And we agreed to enactment together. And erstwhile Biden and Trump met successful the Oval Office of each the different issues, they agreed to enactment unneurotic connected this. I then- Jake and I went to spot Mike Waltz, his incoming successor, and I met Steve Witkoff, and we agreed we're going to enactment successful lockstep. Talk astir nary daylight, we're going to person nary daylight, and, and we did that. And by the clip Steve came retired to- to Doha, we benignant of had 2 issues. Finally got the hostage database [as] I mentioned. Hamas had raised 2 wholly caller issues. We had to span those, and it was lone by moving unneurotic that we were able- to capable to bash that. On the dynamics of the negotiation, the- the cards connected the array are Palestinian prisoners being held by Israel, and a ceasefire and assorted redeployments of Israeli forces, and so- and other- immoderate galore different things. Israel had a nonstop transmission with- with Hamas erstwhile they needed it, and we had the mediators, often, with Hamas close downstairs. We thought if we were to spell face-to-face with Hamas, it could actually, Hamas could usage that to play 1 broadside disconnected another, and truthful we trusted the Egyptians and the Qataris and we had bully accusation of everything going on. And that's the way- the way- we, we handled it. I think- I don't deliberation a much nonstop transmission would person produced a faster result.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you've got immoderate colorful anecdotes successful determination astir him, benignant of closing with Netanyahu, saying, you gotta bash this, you person to hold to this.

BRETT MCGURK: So again, we have- we person a afloat deal. Hamas accepts the list, and past Hamas comes successful with a wholly caller demand: for the 9 sick and wounded hostages, they request 300 life- Palestinian prisoners serving beingness sentences, mostly Hamas, precise hardcore Hamas terrorists, galore of them who've killed Israelis and killed Americans, they importune connected coming out--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --huge governmental hazard astatine home--

BRETT MCGURK: --for- for the civilians. There's a wholly unprecedented request implicit a twelvemonth of talks. We whittled that down to 110 life-sentence prisoners for those 9 sick and wounded civilians, and the buffer portion that Israel would beryllium successful in this archetypal signifier of the deal. Israel wanted 1,200 meters. Hamas wanted 500. We chopped it to 700. But you mentioned this benignant of bonzer moment. I mean, we're each successful Doha and benignant of hold to disagreement labour due to the fact that we had Hamas and Israel successful the aforesaid building. And Steve went to spot Netanyahu. It was a week earlier the inauguration, and I called into the gathering successful the Israeli furniture room. I went to spot the Israelis successful Doha, I'm with their team, called into the gathering with Netanyahu and their cabinet, and Steve Witkoff is there, saying, "this is the deal. It's going to beryllium 110 life-sentenced prisoners," which was precise difficult, and we- we benignant of chopped the- divided the mediate connected the buffer zone, and- and the Israeli absorption was highly negative, but yet we had the envoy of 1 president connected the line, and we had the envoy of the incoming president say, this is what we got to do. It was the past last issue, and the Israelis accepted that deal, and that's however we got- again, Romy, Doron and Emily came location connected the 19th, I announced it connected your- connected your program, but they should person travel retired successful that November deal.

MARGARET BRENNAN: As we upwind down, I conscionable privation to marque definite I inquire you astir Saudi Arabia due to the fact that you mentioned it close astatine the top. This is present January of 2021. You're astatine the opening of the Biden administration. You alert to Saudi Arabia to conscionable Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, MbS arsenic he's known, he's persona non grata due to the fact that of the execution of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi. That's the infinitesimal we are in. You spell determination to explicate what President Biden is going to do, and MbS shocks you due to the fact that helium makes you an connection you ne'er expected. He says 'I privation to normalize relations with Israel.' Did you spell backmost and archer President Biden that? Because helium didn't, arsenic you write, enactment connected it for a twelvemonth oregon more.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, MbS successful that meeting- I've known him for a agelong time, but I was precise wide on, we are going to chopped disconnected violative weapons for Saudi Arabia. We're going to contented caller sanctions crossed the committee of galore of your information services related to Khashoggi. We're going to merchandise the quality study on- connected Khashoggi and a fig of different things. But Biden was precise wide earlier I went. He besides wanted to marque definite we're not- we're not wholly breaching our relations with Saudi Arabia, a precise important country. And we had a precise pointed speech that is successful the publication successful AlUla, successful a tent, this was during COVID, and I said to him, finally, I said, "look, wherever bash you privation to beryllium successful 3 years?" And helium was benignant of in, like, peacemaking mode. He said, look, I- we're going to person a backmost transmission with the Iranians done Baghdad. I bash deliberation we tin bring the Yemen warfare to a close. But for that to happen, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia person to beryllium seen arsenic moving together. And past helium said, I'm- I'm prepared to enactment towards recognizing Israel, diplomatic relations with Israel, and that had to see a fig of components, and we talked done it, including a pathway connected the Palestinian piece. That was hard to envision. But yes, certainly, that was the cardinal to my study backmost erstwhile I saw the president, that that mightiness beryllium thing successful the [unintel]--

[CROSSTALK]

MARGARET BRENNAN: But you said--

BRETT MCGURK: --but astatine the time--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --President Biden didn't privation to person thing to do--

BRETT MCGURK: --at the time--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --with the Middle East.

[END CROSSTALK]

BRETT MCGURK: --and I'd beryllium just to myself. I mean, I- I didn't prehend connected it either. I just- and I look backmost connected that, I deliberation we should person moved close away. And it wasn't until- you know, this is the happening astir the Middle East, Margaret. You can- you tin backmost retired of it. The satellite intervenes. Okay, the satellite intervenes. So that archetypal year, we had astir nary engagement with, particularly, the Gulf States. I mean, I was retired determination a batch arsenic the Middle East White House envoy. We importantly withdrew our subject presence, air, naval, aerial defense. Then we person Afghanistan evacuation, and--

MARGARET BRENNAN: That changed everything--

BRETT MCGURK: --that's erstwhile a telephone came to me. Can you telephone each the leaders successful the Gulf to unfastened up their aerial bases and accidental we're going to beryllium landing thousands of Afghans, I don't cognize however agelong they'll beryllium there. And each state said yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Which is an astonishing thing--

BRETT MCGURK: Including Saudi Arabia and UAE and Qatar and Kuwait, Bahrain, everybody.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Without knowing who these radical are--

BRETT MCGURK: Right.

MARGARET BRENNAN: --But trusting America that they're sending radical who aren't a risk.

BRETT MCGURK: And without that telephone telephone and without those platforms, we would person been successful an adjacent worse concern astatine that time. I was not moving Afghanistan; I worked connected that facet of it. Then the war, Russia's penetration of Ukraine, and past suddenly--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --America needs the Middle East--

BRETT MCGURK: --The aged issues of vigor supplies, and the lone plaything shaper is truly Saudi Arabia, and you need- we request Saudi Arabia, and to bash that, the determination shaper is the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. I picture this successful the book, that's- we yet worked our mode backmost towards decent relations with Saudi Arabia and started to enactment towards the normalization deal. But that was not- that deal, Margaret, was not, it's not similar we, you know, we were pushing it. The Saudis asked america to enactment with them connected it, the Israelis asked america to enactment with them connected it, and we enactment these stepping stones. You know, there's this quality conscionable this weekend- oregon this week astir this airplane implicit Saudi Arabia, we really negotiated an statement betwixt Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Israel astir getting American forces disconnected an land successful the Red Sea. They've been determination since the Camp David Accords, and successful speech for that, Saudi Arabia opened its skies to each civilian planes, careless of destination. President Biden announced that connected the trip. That was benignant of one, 1 nationalist constituent of wherever this process was going, and yeah, I privation we had started sooner.

MARGARET BRENNAN: This was, 2022 Russian invades Ukraine--

BRETT MCGURK: --2022.

MARGARET BRENNAN: --as you say, there's a planetary vigor crisis, suddenly. But you besides say, different than you, nary elder authoritative had met with the Crown Prince. That means the caput of defense, the caput of state, the nationalist information adviser. None of them could beryllium bothered to spell to 1 of our closest partners successful the Middle East? I recognize there's disagreement, but that's a immense oversight.

BRETT MCGURK: In that archetypal year, yeah, yeah--

MARGARET BRENNAN: And a immense missed opportunity--

BRETT MCGURK: I deliberation Secretary Austin made a travel out, but I deliberation Saudi was the past connected the- connected the agenda, and that trip, that halt yet got pulled down for reasons. So yeah, it was a mistake.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you--

BRETT MCGURK: --Because these- these countries successful the Gulf- I person an epigraph in, successful the- successful the book, Margaret, by- by John F. Kennedy. It's 1 of my favourite speeches of his. A code helium gave successful Utah conscionable 2 months earlier his death, and helium says the intent of overseas argumentation is not to supply an outlet for our ain anticipation oregon indignation, it is to get existent things done successful the existent world. And successful the enforcement branch, if you're successful a White House to get existent things done successful the existent world, you person to person relations with countries that mightiness not stock each of your values.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So each of what you conscionable laid retired leads to this infinitesimal successful July 2022 erstwhile President Biden goes to Saudi Arabia, and we had the fist bump heard astir the world, arsenic you notation to it. You said it was "absurd." It was a "self-made scandal."

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah.

MARGARET BRENNAN: That's astir arsenic captious arsenic you get erstwhile it comes to President Biden, you were precise deferential to him. But you were ticked.

BRETT MCGURK: I--

MARGARET BRENNAN: He was refusing to spell and shingle the manus of the crown prince astatine the entranceway to his ain palace.

BRETT MCGURK: We didn't cognize what was going to hap successful that moment, and I was of the view, got to shingle his hand, and- and we had acceptable up this trip–you deliberation astir wherever we were, we had– I mentioned that woody we had. We had the Israel process moving, we had successful Israel, President Biden met with Prime Minister Lapid astatine the clip and encouraged Lapid to denote his enactment for- for 2 states, which Lapid believed before, but helium hadn't said arsenic Prime Minister–I person that country successful the book. A batch of things had benignant of travel together, and the Saudi halt was- was truthful important--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --You were trying to rebuild–

BRETT MCGURK: --Well, you mentioned however authorities tin intrude into a batch of things. I deliberation the- I person a country with Jake and I, Jake is 1 of my closest counterparts--

MARGARET BRENNAN: The nationalist information adviser--

BRETT MCGURK: --the nationalist information adviser, and he's proceeding from the White House astir however things are playing out. And so, um--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --and President Biden said, you recount that, "I'm going to get killed for this." And he's talking astir politically.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, we landed successful Saudi Arabia, and I went to the excavation notes from the media pool, and determination was an 18-minute from erstwhile helium landed until erstwhile helium got out. So I accidental successful the book, fto maine archer you what happened successful those 18 minutes, and I archer you what happened. He was acrophobic astir the optics and the and the imagery, and the full happening I- I- that's however I picture it. I think, and I encouraged the president to conscionable shingle his hand.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But it was each successful work of trying to rebuild America's alliances successful this captious portion of the world. That's wherever your caput was.

BRETT MCGURK: Yeah, we were asking some--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --and the president's caput was connected the authorities and the quality rights issues.

BRETT MCGURK: Well, we were asking immoderate precise hard things to the Saudis that we needed for our halfway interests, and truthful I deliberation the fist bump acceptable america back. I volition accidental we had a precise good–overall–that was a precise bully and palmy visit, and we- we built connected it. But it's however imagery- you know, I was- Margaret, I was with President Bush successful Baghdad erstwhile helium came to Baghdad, I was sitting conscionable disconnected to his side. Kind of an bonzer moment, I mean, what it took to get the president of the United States to travel into Iraq astatine that time. You retrieve what it was like. And I was sitting, I don't know, six, 7 feet distant from him erstwhile the Iraqi newsman got up and threw 2 shoes astatine the president.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mmhmm.

BRETT MCGURK: And I remember- immoderate other happened connected that visit--

MARGARET BRENNAN: That's each anyone--

BRETT MCGURK: --nobody remembers, and the- the fist bump benignant of overshadowed each the what was really the- the substance of that, of that sojourn and what, what came of it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And conscionable lastly, you know, I talked astir immoderate of the disapproval of you. One of the things that I deliberation you reveal, successful a idiosyncratic way, is however overmuch of a toll this took connected you. The clip you spent distant from your precise young daughter. You constitute astir the thoughts you had astir that small Abigail. A small four-year-old who was taken into Gaza, and however you were having nightmares astir her. That's thing that possibly is simply a spot humanizing successful a beauteous pugnacious situation. Why did you deliberation that you needed to stock that, that glimpse into your idiosyncratic life?

BRETT MCGURK: I wrote this book– determination was nary different mode to constitute it than to conscionable determination it each down connected the page, raw. I ne'er thought to myself, "how is this going to beryllium seen?" Or, I person nary ambition for immoderate aboriginal bureau oregon anything. It was conscionable what happened and what was it like. And I- and to- and successful the penning of it, it was intolerable to- to write, successful the travel of writing, without putting everything down. And I person those anecdotes due to the fact that that's however it felt. And cognizant the full clip that lives were being mislaid each azygous day, and trying to halt it. So that- it was all-consuming. But that was the lone mode to constitute this book. This is not a book, Margaret, astir adust policy, this is simply a publication astir the grittiness of warfare and diplomacy and the awfulness, the awfulness of it successful each dimension, and not conscionable making a code oregon saying thing should happen, really trying to bring it to a close, and trying to bring Abigail location and reasoning Abigail mightiness beryllium dead. Then you're surviving with that each day. And you get to cognize the families of the hostages, and you- you spot the toll each azygous time successful Gaza, and you're ever a hair's breadth distant from much American soldiers being killed oregon connected the brink of a large war. It's what it was similar successful the day-to-day. And, truthful immoderate broadside you mightiness beryllium connected on this, this polarizing issue, I conscionable anticipation readers volition work it and instrumentality distant and deliberation for themselves, "what would I person done successful this moment? What mightiness I person done?" That's however I tried to constitute it. Just- I poured successful a precise raw, this is, you know, this is it. So yeah, I person those those anecdotes of Christmas Day being with my daughter, a quiet, you know, 1 quiescent moment, realizing she's increasing up successful a mode that I've missed a year, and past I get a telephone from the Situation Room that we person 3 Americans grievously wounded successful bluish Iraq, and I'm backmost astatine the White House. You know, that's conscionable what this is like. And truthful I deliberation it's a antithetic benignant of book, and I anticipation radical work it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you for your time.

BRETT MCGURK: Thank you, Margaret.

** Clarification: The Washington Post, not The New Yorker, reported then-Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin privately described Israel's actions arsenic "playing with location money."