This Is How You Log Off

As the summer comes to an end, we’re reasoning astir what unplugging—the eventual luxury—looks similar successful 2025. With a increasing slate of apps aiming to trim our screen time and immoderate tech leaders trying to reinvent the net arsenic it was, wherever are we heading? WIRED’s features exertion Jason Kehe joins america to sermon however arsenic users we are present champion positioned to instrumentality the powerfulness back.

Mentioned successful this episode:
Going Dumb: My Year With a Flip Phone by Jason Kehe
Bluesky Is Plotting a Total Takeover of the Social Internet by Kate Knibbs
Alexis Ohanian’s Next Social Platform Has One Rule: Don’t Act Like an Asshole by Katie Drummond

Join america unrecorded successful San Francisco connected September 9. Get your tickets here.

You tin travel Michael Calore connected Bluesky astatine @snackfight and Lauren Goode connected Bluesky astatine @laurengoode. Write to america astatine uncannyvalley@wired.com.

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Michael Calore: Hey, this is Mike. Before we start, I privation to stock immoderate breathtaking quality with you. We're doing a unrecorded amusement successful San Francisco connected September 9th successful concern with the section station, KQED. Lauren and I volition beryllium down with our exertion successful chief, Katie Drummond, and we'll person a peculiar impermanent joining america for a speech that you volition not privation to miss. You tin usage the nexus successful the amusement notes to drawback your summons and invitation a friend. We cannot hold to spot you there. Lauren, however you doing?

Lauren Goode: I americium great. I made a small late-night acquisition past nighttime erstwhile I was browsing connected the internet.

Michael Calore: You made a late-night purchase?

Lauren Goode: Mm-hmm. Do you privation to cognize what it is?

Michael Calore: Yes.

Lauren Goode: It's not what Reese talked astir earlier connected this show.

Michael Calore: What is it?

Lauren Goode: I bought a Brick.

Michael Calore: You bought a brick?

Lauren Goode: Do you cognize what a Brick is?

Michael Calore: It's a happening that they usage galore of to physique buildings.

Lauren Goode: Not that. It's a small silicone instrumentality that you connect to your fridge oregon immoderate different aboveground successful your location that's distant from your bedroom, and past you pat your telephone to it astatine night, and it automatically disables definite apps that you've preset it to. Then erstwhile you get into bed, you're not doomscrolling connected your telephone due to the fact that you virtually cannot entree those apps. It's a carnal block.

Michael Calore: It bricks your phone.

Lauren Goode: Bricks your phone.

Michael Calore: Well, that's cool.

Lauren Goode: I heard our colleague, Adrienne, talking astir it a bunch, and I was like, "You cognize what? I'm going to bash it."

Michael Calore: What happens if there's an emergency?

Lauren Goode: You die. But you cognize what? You're not scrolling Instagram Reels erstwhile you bash it.

Michael Calore: You wouldn't cognize due to the fact that your telephone ... It doesn't similar that-

Lauren Goode: It's conscionable bliss from ... Yes. You spell to telephone heaven.

Michael Calore: Well, that sounds precise overmuch connected taxable for today's show.

Lauren Goode: It is. I truly deliberation we should speech astir this due to the fact that our telephone addictions and our net addictions are getting worse, and we've got to fig retired the future.

Michael Calore: We do. Let's get started. This is WIRED's Uncanny Valley, a amusement astir the people, power, and power of Silicon Valley. Today, we are talking astir the aboriginal of unplugging. Going disconnected the grid, being offline, immoderate you privation to telephone it, it remains an aspirational extremity for galore of us. Apps similar Opal and adjacent carnal devices similar Lauren's Brick, which temporarily artifact distracting apps from your phone, are becoming progressively popular. Here's the happening with these products, though. They inactive enactment a batch of the onus connected us, the users, when, successful fact, we're profoundly locked into a overmuch larger strategy that is designed to support america wholly attached to our technology. Technology is inescapable now, and we often work stories oregon study connected them ourselves present astatine WIRED astir radical going backmost to flip phones oregon landlines oregon the entrepreneurs who are determined to revive immoderate early-2000s epoch of the internet, which we'll get into. But our question for this occurrence is, who truly successful the aboriginal gets to unplug? Does unplugging conscionable go the eventual luxury? And however bash the remainder of america bash it? I'm Michael Calore, Director of Consumer Tech and Culture.

Lauren Goode: I'm Lauren Goode. I'm a elder correspondent.

Jason Kehe: And I'm Jason Kehe, Features Editor and all-around Ubermensch.

Michael Calore: Thank you for being here, Jason.

Lauren Goode: Jason is successful the mediate of closing the people contented of our magazine, which conscionable means the adjacent 2 weeks are precise hectic, and we truly had to twist his limb to travel into workplace today. We are ace appreciative of this.

Jason Kehe: And surely our beloved listeners person been clamoring for my instrumentality to the podcast.

Michael Calore: Yes.

Lauren Goode: They have. Emails every-

Jason Kehe: And for them, astatine least, I'm blessed to beryllium here.

Michael Calore: And convey you for unplugging and coming into the country with us. I privation to commencement disconnected by putting our cards connected the table. What is everybody's regular mean telephone surface time, to the champion of your knowledge?

Jason Kehe: I really checked this recently, and I'm truthful pleased to study excavation is nether an hr a day.

Michael Calore: Wow.

Jason Kehe: I was successful the institution of, I think, 3 different people. One was astatine 3 hours, 1 astatine five, and different astatine nine. I, of course, won that-

Lauren Goode: Wait. Do you mean little than an hr connected societal media?

Jason Kehe: I checked the integer wellness mounting oregon immoderate it is, and it said mean 59 minutes for everything, and it showed maine 20 minutes connected email, 7 minutes connected text, oregon immoderate it was. Yes, that is my regular average.

Michael Calore: How does that comparison to yours, Lauren?

Lauren Goode: I'm stunned. I don't adjacent cognize what to say. Well, I primitively was going to accidental I garbage to reply this question, Mike, not due to the fact that I don't emotion you both, but I conscionable consciousness nary 1 truly cares astir my surface time. Mostly, it's due to the fact that I consciousness what matters much is however crappy I consciousness aft I person spent excessively overmuch clip scrolling Instagram and different societal media sites. It's a qualitative analysis, not quantitative.

Jason Kehe: But what is the quantitative number?

Lauren Goode: I don't know. Hours. Hours holistically, not conscionable societal media, of course, due to the fact that I'm perpetually speechmaking online, and I'm perpetually texting, and I'm perpetually texting with sources. Not conscionable friends and my mom, but existent sources connected aggregate messaging apps. It's a lot. What astir you, Mike? How overmuch clip are you online?

Michael Calore: A small implicit 2 hours a day.

Lauren Goode: I americium going to look it up. Oh, my God.

Jason Kehe: What is it? What is it?

Lauren Goode: Oh, my God.

Jason Kehe: On-air reveal.

Lauren Goode: Eight hours and 43 minutes.

Jason Kehe: Incredible.

Michael Calore: What? Daily average? That is simply a batch of time.

Lauren Goode: It's mostly Safari, Slack, and messages, which tracks.

Jason Kehe: But backmost to the speech I was having with friends precocious astir our surface time, the 1 who was astatine 9 hours, the closest to you, was weirdly the astir astatine bid with her telephone use. I conscionable precocious subscribed to the people variation of the San Francisco Chronicle truthful that I don't person to look astatine quality connected my phone. I'm truly successful an unbundling. I deliberation we should disaggregate our technological lives. The telephone wants to beryllium everything, but what if you conscionable re-atomize your beingness into dedicated experiences and devices? Buy an alarm clock. Buy a GPS for your car. Subscribe to a newspaper.

Michael Calore: These are things that a batch of radical are really doing arsenic solutions to the occupation of spending excessively overmuch clip connected their phone, when, successful fact, they were conscionable what we did earlier we had phones. My surface clip utilized to beryllium a batch worse. I took progressive measures to curb it, and past I person this caller happening present where, whenever I'm eating a repast oregon watching a tv amusement oregon something, I conscionable crook my telephone upside down, and it automatically silences notifications, puts it to sleep, and fundamentally puts it into Do Not Disturb mode. And past erstwhile I privation to, I tin prime it up.

Lauren Goode: You are besides 1 of the fewer radical I know, Mike, who really abides by those clip limits that you acceptable connected Instagram. Sometimes I'll nonstop you a meme, and you'll say, "I'll cheque it aboriginal due to the fact that I deed my limit."

Michael Calore: I usage the integer wellbeing settings connected the Android telephone to springiness myself 15 minutes of Instagram a day.

Lauren Goode: But I hold with what Jason's saying due to the fact that what you're describing, Mike ... That is simply a precise aboriginal 2020 solution. And we are WIRED. And what is the aboriginal of unplugging? Is it this disaggregation, arsenic you enactment it? Because it's acknowledging we're not really going to unplug. We're each going to person our ain benignant of attack to it. How bash we really physique a beingness past that feels meaningful successful each of the antithetic compartments of the ways we usage the internet?

Michael Calore: I person an answer. You bargain a portion of exertion to get you disconnected of your technology.

Lauren Goode: Like Brick.

Michael Calore: Jason-

Lauren Goode: Jazz hands.

Michael Calore: ... you had a flip telephone for an experimentation for a fig of months.

Jason Kehe: Yes. This was mode backmost successful 2018, I privation to say.

Michael Calore: This was earlier the pandemic-

Jason Kehe: It was a afloat year, but yes.

Michael Calore: And, Lauren, you went retired and bought the Brick?

Lauren Goode: I did. Hasn't arrived yet, but I'm truthful excited.

Michael Calore: There's besides the Light phone, and there's different products similar it. I deliberation Punkt made 1 for a while, but fundamentally it's a telephone that works arsenic a telephone and looks similar a smartphone, but it has precise constricted features. You tin bash things that you request a telephone for, but precise small else. I'm conscionable funny astir the Brick and astir different apps that you've tried. I cognize there's an app called Opal that a batch of radical person been using. Lauren, what is your acquisition with these things?

Lauren Goode: I haven't utilized Opal.

Jason Kehe: Nor person I. In fact, I deliberation I benignant of philosophically reason the full thought of utilizing apps to get disconnected apps oregon utilizing exertion to get disconnected technology.

Michael Calore: I person to accidental that the apps to get you disconnected of your apps person been precise palmy for me. I person utilized a mates of these things similar the integer well-being timers connected Android. Clearspace is different 1 that helps you get each the clutter disconnected of your telephone and support it distant from you, and it's been adjuvant for me.

Jason Kehe: But I conjecture my bigger occupation is that I bash deliberation modernity has benignant of conspired against the quality volition to perpetuate these conversations astir the addictiveness of phones is to wholly region the information that we are quality beings susceptible of making decisions from the equation. And I don't deliberation it's arsenic hard arsenic radical privation to judge successful arsenic the tech press, to a ample degree, has contributed to. I defy these conversations due to the fact that I think, whether oregon not you're saying phones are addictive, the specified information of you saying it adds to their powerfulness and their grip and their clasp implicit our lives, and we deliberation our transportation to them is inevitable and unbreakable.

Lauren Goode: I'm truthful gladsome we brought you connected today. No, I'm genuinely glad, though. Here's my thing, is that I deliberation we've go beta testers. There's this committedness close present from the purveyors of exertion that agentic AI is going to commencement doing immoderate of these tasks for us. I won't walk an hr buying due to the fact that I'm going to enactment successful a punctual what I need, and past it's going to bid it for me. In the meantime, that requires truthful overmuch babysitting and truthful overmuch manus holding and truthful overmuch authentication and each these handshakes betwixt apps and stuff. It's going to beryllium that mode for a while. It's inactive conscionable sucking america successful further with this committedness that it's going to marque our lives easier. In the meantime, we're mired successful it.

Jason Kehe: AI volition yet termination the telephone oregon astatine slightest our knowing of what a telephone is close now.

Lauren Goode: Tell america astir that, then. What does that aboriginal look like?

Jason Kehe: Well, if you look astir astatine the ways radical are engaging with AI now, I'm noticing that erstwhile I'm with friends, and idiosyncratic wants to inquire ChatGPT a question, for instance, they deed the broadside fastener connected their iPhone, which is reprogrammed to motorboat Chat's voice, and past they speech to it directly. You benignant of privation to person a speech that's faster than you tin benignant it. I conscionable deliberation that's going to travel for everything.

Michael Calore: That's an absorbing reflection due to the fact that what we're talking astir is each of the companies that are trying to get america distant from exertion by introducing barriers betwixt america and the technology. This happening you enactment connected your fridge. These apps that unopen down your apps aft a definite play of time. These are each things that are barriers to the exertion that's harming you. But what you're talking about, Jason, is simply a implicit erosion of the barrier. Just instrumentality the telephone retired of the equation, and each of a abrupt it conscionable becomes you and the cloud.

Jason Kehe: Yes. It's astonishing to maine that radical talk of phones arsenic if they are permanent. They volition travel and go, arsenic each exertion does. The committedness of tech, if it is simply a benignant of seamlessness. The telephone is each kinds of barriers. Maybe I'm benignant of going backmost connected my archetypal presumption that friction benefits america successful immoderate ways due to the fact that the phone, I bash think, provides immoderate grade of it.

Michael Calore: Well, we bash request to instrumentality a break. And erstwhile we travel back, we're going to speech astir the internet. We're going to grow beyond conscionable phones, and we're going to speech astir however atrocious the net is for us.

Jason Kehe: Fun.

Michael Calore: Welcome backmost to Uncanny Valley. Today, we're talking astir encephalon rot. In the archetypal fractional of the show, we talked astir however unspeakable our phones are for america and wherefore they're astir apt each going distant very, precise soon and being replaced by AI, arsenic Jason outlined. In the 2nd half, we're going to speech astir the net astatine ample due to the fact that parts of the net are amazing, of course, but determination is inactive conscionable truthful overmuch toxicity online, and fixing it feels similar a gangly order, but it has not stopped immoderate tech leaders from trying. One of those tech leaders is Alexis Ohanian, the co-founder of Reddit. Earlier this year, helium announced that helium was partnering with his erstwhile competitor, Kevin Rose, to relaunch Digg. That's D-I-G-G with 2 Gs. It's a societal media level from the aboriginal 2000s that was precise akin to Reddit. Our editor-in-chief, Katie Drummond precocious spoke with Ohanian for the archetypal large interrogation occurrence of this Uncanny Valley podcast, which you should each perceive to. It's successful your feeds. Alexis shared that helium wanted this caller mentation of Digg to beryllium mode little toxic compared to the different societal media platforms. Lauren, I cognize you person thoughts astir this.

Lauren Goode: I don't cognize however I consciousness astir this. On the 1 hand, I emotion Reddit. I bash emotion those spaces successful the net that consciousness lightly oregon genuinely moderated and besides supply immoderate benignant of niche worth for the happening that you're looking for. Twitter has evidently changed truthful overmuch successful the past fewer years. I emotion the thought of immoderate benignant of revival of Digg and different steadfast abstraction successful the internet. I conscionable don't spot however this gains a ton of traction.

Jason Kehe: Has thing similar this ever worked erstwhile someone's tried to bring backmost quote-unquote aboriginal net glory time site?

Michael Calore: Bluesky is simply a imaginable illustration due to the fact that Bluesky launched arsenic the large open-source, decentralized alternate societal media network, and it got the influx of users aft the 2024 statesmanlike predetermination erstwhile a clump of radical conscionable didn't privation to beryllium associated with X oregon Elon Musk anymore. And it feels similar bluish authorities reddish authorities vibes now, but it does consciousness similar there's a toxicity that exists connected X that does not beryllium connected Bluesky.

Lauren Goode: Amendment.

Michael Calore: Yes.

Lauren Goode: When I published the communicative astir vibe coding, which we talked astir connected past week's episode, determination were conscionable a batch of truly beardown opinions, superior O, connected Bluesky. Most often, I think, from seasoned coders, developers, programmers who had a batch to accidental astir the anticipation of vibe coding starring to truly low-quality codification bases successful the aboriginal and conscionable creating a batch of bugs and breaches, adjacent ... And they're not wrong. It was specified a beardown response. And past radical who conscionable benignant of jumped to, "You are an AI booster," and truly benignant of aggravated skeets, tweets, immoderate we're calling them.

Michael Calore: Wow.

Jason Kehe: And the aboriginal net was, to usage your guys' word, toxic too. I don't cognize wherever we're adjacent going backmost to oregon what we deliberation we're moving toward, but Bluesky seems to maine conscionable arsenic yucky arsenic immoderate spot else.

Lauren Goode: It conscionable feels truthful insulated.

Michael Calore: It is. It's an echo chamber. It's a liberal-leaning echo chamber. But, of course, arsenic we know, your experience, and I'm definite different radical person had experiences that are similar, wherever you accidental the incorrect thing, oregon you measurement retired of line, oregon you explicit an sentiment that is not adjacent capable to the bulk opinion, and you conscionable get excoriated.

Lauren Goode: Totally.

Michael Calore: Jason, to your point, the aboriginal net was toxic arsenic well, yes. I deliberation we each retrieve chat rooms oregon forums successful the aboriginal net wherever you could conscionable get wholly roasted. But, it's amplified to a level now, wherever each level has that connected it, and I deliberation that it's conscionable overwhelming to excessively galore people. In summation to that, you can't truly spell backmost to the mode that the net utilized to be. You can't person a bully net unless you signifier a caller community, and you say, "The nonsubjective of this assemblage is to beryllium nice, and we person moderators, and we person artifact buttons, and we person each these mechanisms successful place," and it volition beryllium precise bully until it scales up and past it conscionable inevitably turns toxic. I deliberation determination is an net utopia assemblage retired there, and it's the archetypal six months of immoderate caller chill app.

Lauren Goode: I disagree with the premise that it's going to hap successful the mode that the net has scaled successful the past. This thought that it scales and truthful becomes a cesspool. I really think, astatine slightest I hope, the aboriginal of portion of the net is is that it's spaces with a batch of taste, for deficiency of a amended word, and I bash judge that that's however much and much radical are curating their net experience, but past there's this underlying cesspool of truly low-quality, meme-ified, wholly toxic information, and that portion of the net is really very, precise bully astatine multiplying and benignant of promulgating their ideas. That is besides going to proceed to exist.

Jason Kehe: Yes. I've started calling the happening you were formerly describing the prestige internet, and I would similar to judge WIRED is portion of that.

Lauren Goode: I deliberation that a satellite exists successful which idiosyncratic tin bask Emily Sundberg's Feed Me Substack arsenic overmuch arsenic they bask Dylan Patel's SemiAnalysis and the semiconductor and AI industry. I work both, and what I similar astir them is that radical are putting a batch of effort and thought and benignant of doing intelligence gymnastics astir what they privation to accidental to their audience. I privation to proceed to spot that net thrive.

Michael Calore: I deliberation that sounds lovely, and it's going to get a cardinal leafage views. And past the feline who posts the video of "How galore Big Macs tin I acceptable successful my rima astatine once?" is going to get 80 cardinal leafage views.

Jason Kehe: There volition ever beryllium elevated media, to usage Lauren's word, and past there's going to beryllium everything else. But I bash think, successful a satellite of AI slop, determination volition beryllium much effort connected the portion of astir radical to question retired immoderate benignant of prime experience.

Michael Calore: And, again, what you're talking astir is putting the onus connected the user. On the reader. On-

Jason Kehe: As it should be.

Michael Calore: ... the idiosyncratic to spell retired and find the things that are little toxic. And I deliberation what these folks that we're talking astir are trying to make is simply a level wherever you don't person to bash that other enactment to find the blessed place. The blessed spot is the level itself. And possibly you person to find the enactment to get there, but past erstwhile you get there, you don't person to curate it for yourself. You don't person to articulation the close forums. You don't person to artifact the close people. You don't person to trust connected moderators. It's conscionable amended each astir due to the fact that it's designed to beryllium better.

Jason Kehe: But isn't the full constituent of being a idiosyncratic successful the satellite precisely that effort to find, question out, discover? That's the pleasance of consumption, I think, uncovering thing that you deliberation is your ain oregon is peculiar successful immoderate way. I don't cognize if anyone really wants to beryllium fed immoderate benignant of externally curated database of quote-unquote high-quality content.

Michael Calore: I deliberation a batch of radical do.

Jason Kehe: When we were kids, didn't we instrumentality pridefulness successful uncovering stuff? We had to enactment our mode toward it, and past we felt ownership of it. That inactive volition ever exist. Everyone has an impulse to beryllium an individual, I think.

Michael Calore: I americium successful implicit agreement. I deliberation that, erstwhile you person thing similar the net astatine your fingertips, you're going to usage it to find the things that you're funny in, and it's going to beryllium there. There volition beryllium corners of the net that we tin bent retired successful that are blessed places for america until the extremity of time.

Lauren Goode: I besides deliberation we whitethorn beryllium making this bifurcation betwixt what the kids are speechmaking and what they're watching. I deliberation it's a batch of watching successful the future, and I don't deliberation it's harmless to say, conscionable due to the fact that the feline eating the hamburger video gets 80 cardinal views, that the remainder of the video depletion is ... There's besides incredibly high-quality, curated, astute video worldly going connected too. Mike, you and I person had this speech a fewer times astir what it would look similar if each of america felt similar we'd benignant of made it. We lived immoderate beingness of leisure. And I joked that for maine it was being capable to person wallpaper successful my home. Real wallpaper, not stick-and-peel. And you said, and I ever deliberation of this, that it's not having to transportation your phone, wallet, oregon keys.

Michael Calore: Right. Nothing successful your pockets.

Lauren Goode: Nothing successful your pockets. And-

Michael Calore: Absolutely nothing.

Lauren Goode: ... that is due to the fact that idiosyncratic is carrying it for you, idiosyncratic is managing that for you, due to the fact that you don't request to adjacent beryllium connected your phone.

Michael Calore: Right. You don't request a telephone due to the fact that you person a idiosyncratic for that. And you don't request a cardinal due to the fact that there's idiosyncratic waiting to fto you into your home. The thought that you tin conscionable determination astir successful the satellite with thing successful your pockets.

Jason Kehe: God, I emotion that.

Michael Calore: You ne'er person to grip money. You ne'er person to look astatine a measure to wage it, and you ne'er person to substance anybody backmost oregon acceptable an assignment oregon bash thing connected a telephone due to the fact that somebody's doing that for you. That means that you person made it

Lauren Goode: These days, it conscionable feels similar paying rent and buying groceries successful costly cities means you've made it. But yes.

Jason Kehe: I permission my location without worldly successful my pockets each the time. It's what I unrecorded to do, and it is arsenic glorious arsenic you say. How often bash you guys permission the location without your phones?

Michael Calore: Never.

Lauren Goode: Oh, my gosh. Never.

Michael Calore: Never.

Jason Kehe: Try it.

Lauren Goode: I deliberation what we're getting to is that the aboriginal of unplugging is really the eventual luxury. And Jason is saying ... Jason is doing the mag nonfiction mentation of "Here's however to bargain immoderate of that luxury for yourself."

Jason Kehe: I don't deliberation it's the sphere of the affluent to beryllium capable to disconnect, though that is, again, what radical privation america to believe, that the little well-off volition beryllium the ones who person to beryllium perpetually online and that the affluent volition beryllium blissfully connected an land without immoderate technology, but I don't cognize however overmuch I bargain that either. I bash not person overmuch money. A batch of radical I cognize bash not person overmuch money, and yet they each time tin unrecorded a beingness of glorious disconnection.

Michael Calore: The power is with the user.

Jason Kehe: Yes, it is. We person the power.

Lauren Goode: Well, Jason, erstwhile we're cohabiting, I'll marque definite we person a bully speechmaking country for us.

Jason Kehe: That's dreamy. But I knew you would bring up your matrimony proposal. To listeners who don't know, Lauren's been proposing to maine connected and disconnected for the amended portion of, I don't know, 10 years.

Lauren Goode: It's astir apt been astir seven. Well, I don't know. I didn't suggest to you erstwhile I was really engaged.

Jason Kehe: Or did you?

Michael Calore: We could chopped the hostility with a knife. Let's instrumentality different break. Well, convey you some for this candid and wide-ranging speech astir telephone addictions, the rot of the internet, and the powerfulness being with the user. Thank you for being here, Jason.

Jason Kehe: I hesitate to accidental pleasure, but I will. My pleasure, Mike. And Lauren.

Michael Calore: We're not letting you spell conscionable yet due to the fact that we inactive person to bash our recommendations. Lauren, bash you privation to spell first?

Lauren Goode: I urge a book. It's called The Ministry of Time. It's a 2024 fabrication caller by Kaliane Bradley. This book's got everything. It's a spy thriller. It's romance. It's comedy. It's sci-fi. It's clip travel. I volition admit I person not finished it yet, but I program to. I perfectly volition decorativeness this book. And I'm loving it. It's making maine laughter retired loud. It's conscionable a bully small treat.

Michael Calore: Jason, person you work it?

Jason Kehe: No, but I've heard of it.

Lauren Goode: I tin indebtedness it to you afterward, if you want. I'll enactment it successful our notes-

Jason Kehe: But, remember, I loaned you a book, and you inactive person it.

Lauren Goode: I know.

Jason Kehe: Months and months person passed-

Lauren Goode: I'm sorry. This has happened twice-

Jason Kehe: Marriage proposals-

Lauren Goode: I know. If I decorativeness the books and get them backmost to you successful a timely fashion, volition you reconsider?

Jason Kehe: It's clip for my recommendation, isn't it?

Michael Calore: Yes, it is.

Lauren Goode: See however good helium evaded that?

Jason Kehe: Since I'm not a regular connected the podcast, I wasn't capable to speech up a quirky small movie I saw connected Netflix called K-Pop Demon Hunters.

Michael Calore: Oh, no.

Jason Kehe: Which, yes, has now, I think, rightly turned into a planetary phenomenon. It's fundamentally astir K-pop redeeming the world. There's a miss group, and past there's a lad set of rival demons that they benignant of person to slay. And astatine a clip erstwhile K-pop is benignant of known by many, but not needfully listened to by everyone, this movie comes on to marque the lawsuit that it is simply a genuinely planetary and world-saving phenomenon. It's conscionable a enactment of implicit genius. Utterly convincing. And present I privation to spell to a K-pop concert.

Michael Calore: Nice.

Lauren Goode: Mike, what's your recommendation?

Michael Calore: I americium going to urge a podcast. The podcast is called The War On Cars, and the occurrence is titled, Should the Bus Be Free? And it is astir 2 weeks old. I conscionable got astir to listening to it, but it's pegged to the improvement of Zohran Mamdani, who is 1 of the candidates and the starring campaigner to beryllium politician of New York City, who during his run said that, if helium becomes mayor, helium wants to marque buses successful New York accelerated and free. That leads to each kinds of questions like, tin you marque the autobus free? How overmuch does it outgo to tally the bus? When you bash marque the autobus free, does it summation ridership? Who does it benefit? What are each of the knock-on effects of making that determination successful a large city? The squad connected the podcast examines this from a probe perspective, and they look astatine aviator programs and imperishable programs that person tally successful different US cities and astir the world, and they look astatine ridership numbers, and they speech done each the facts. It's truly absorbing to maine to see that, if there's thing that you privation successful the world, and it feels impossible, similar you privation escaped healthcare, you privation escaped assemblage education, you privation escaped transit successful the metropolis that you unrecorded in, and what does that look like? It's a truly absorbing thought experiment, and they bash a large occupation connected the show, truthful I privation to urge it. The War connected Cars. Find it wherever you pod.

Jason Kehe: I don't pod. We should bash different occurrence connected wherefore I see podcasts the astir unsafe mean today.

Michael Calore: Well, convey you for participating successful this unsafe show of cognition and opinion.

Jason Kehe: I'm telling you it took a batch to get maine here.

Michael Calore: All right. Well, convey you for sitting with america this week.

Lauren Goode: Thanks, Jason.

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