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On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Rep. Ro Khanna, Democrat of California
- Rep. Jim Himes, Democrat of Connecticut
- Rep. Don Bacon, Republican of Nebraska
- Chris Krebs, CBS News cybersecurity contributor, and Ben Buchanan, Biden advisor and present a prof astatine Johns Hopkins and an advisor to Anthropic
- Rye Barcott, Marine seasoned and With Honor founder
Click here to browse afloat transcripts from 2026 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan successful Washington.
And this week connected Face the Nation: President Trump's prime of nationalist quality manager has a chilling effect connected the intel assemblage and Capitol Hill.
Plus, Democrats reckon with a Senate campaigner who's drafting nationalist attraction for the incorrect reasons.
President Trump's expansive program for the Washington, D.C., skyline isn't the lone happening shaking up the metropolis this summer. Last week, helium appointed a antheral with nary quality acquisition to caput up the apical bureau successful the quality community.
Bill Pulte, who serves arsenic the manager of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, is the heir to a gathering luck and adjacent to the president. He's rubbed immoderate Cabinet members the incorrect way.
(Begin VT)
SENATOR THOM TILLIS (R-North Carolina): Did you really archer Pulte you were going to punch him successful the face?
SCOTT BESSENT (U.S. Treasury Secretary): No, sir. I really said I was going to footwear his ass.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And his assignment has sparked interest among adjacent Republicans trying to reauthorize a surveillance programme that's owed to expire this week.
The apical Democrat connected the House Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes, and Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon volition besides articulation us.
Meanwhile, Democrats are keeping adjacent ticker connected Tuesday's main Senate primary, arsenic their campaigner faces immoderate alarming allegations of past assertive behavior. We volition speech with a apical Graham Platner supporter, California Democrat Ro Khanna.
Finally, should the authorities person much power implicit the exploding tract of artificial intelligence?
It's each conscionable up connected Face the Nation.
Good morning, and invited to Face the Nation.
We person a batch to get to today, but we statesman this greeting with Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California.
Good to person you present successful person.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA (D-California): Good to beryllium back.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're conscionable backmost from Maine.
And, connected Tuesday, there's a superior determination for Democrats. It volition assistance to find who is going to situation Susan Collins for her seat. She is the longtime Republican legislator who has held onto it. This is each yet astir who is going to power Congress, power the Senate.
There's been a batch of excitement astir Graham Platner, who we mentioned determination close astatine the top. He's a veteran, an oysterman with this anti- constitution progressive message. Why are you inactive campaigning for him aft each of these questions astir action, comments, enactment successful his idiosyncratic life?
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Well, we had a rally planned.
And I privation to beryllium clear. His actions were misogynistic, they were shameful, they were wrong. But they didn't travel arsenic a astonishment to a batch of the folks successful Maine. People successful Maine knew that helium had had 2 tours of work successful Iraq. He came backmost broken, successful a acheronian place. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but they knew this. He was successful Washington.
And past helium went backmost to Maine, and helium started an oyster farm. He took accountability. He himself has said it was shameful, and helium had redemption. And present he's moving connected a level of nationalist wellness insurance, erstwhile Susan Collins is voting to chopped it.
He's talking astir taxing billionaires. Susan Collins is for taxation breaks to billionaires. And he's opposed to this overseas war, wherever Susan Collins supported the warfare successful Iran, and that's wherefore I'm inactive supporting him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But I privation to spell done immoderate of what we're referring to present successful specifics.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Of course.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The run acknowledged the campaigner sent sexually explicit texts to aggregate women portion helium was married, rather recently. He's acknowledged helium had a tattoo with Nazi symbols that he's since covered up, but helium claimed helium didn't cognize the linkage and the symbolism.
And he's had societal media posts insulting agrarian people, downplaying intersexual assault. He has apologized oregon said helium regrets immoderate of that behavior. As you conscionable alluded to, helium has besides referred to the information helium has dealt with PTSD and immoderate intoxicant issues. Are you assured each the damaging info is out?
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: That's what helium says.
My consciousness is, earlier the primary, a batch of this has travel out. Obviously, look, if determination was grounds of violence. I would not enactment him. If determination was grounds of intersexual assault, I would person zero enactment for him. He acknowledges that helium was misogynistic, it was shameful.
One happening I privation to marque precise clear, we should not beryllium attacking the women who came forward. We should not beryllium attacking the journalists. Some radical person been attacking the "New York Times" journalists. They're – they did their job.
We should absorption connected acknowledging it was misogynistic, acknowledging it was wrong, moving connected with redemption, and past focusing connected his issues, which are stopping the war, taking connected the billionaire class.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said determination was nary grounds of violence. You – successful your view, there's thing credible astatine this point?
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: My presumption is that, adjacent according to the "New York Times" piece, they said determination was nary harm, nary injury.
There was toxicity, and determination was verbal intimidation, which I condemn. But Graham has made it wide that determination was nary grounds of violence. That, to me, is simply a reddish line.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
Well, due to the fact that there's this woman, Lyndsey Fifield, who dated him for astir 2 years' time, and she's been posting connected societal media, speaking connected the grounds astir their relationship. She said helium near an AR-15 lying astir his Capitol Hill flat erstwhile helium lived here, told her if anyone broke successful he'd rape them to amusement he's dominant.
She did accidental helium ne'er deed her oregon punched her, but said helium could beryllium rough, and she described being grabbed by her shoulder. She described him pulling her limb arsenic she was refusing to get retired of a car. Years ago, the mantra was, judge each women. Do you judge her?
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Yes. And I don't deliberation our broadside should beryllium attacking her. And I admit her courageousness from coming forward.
I cognize immoderate radical are saying, oh, she's a Republican. I deliberation that is irrelevant.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: I judge her. I deliberation Graham acted shamefully, and helium acted, arsenic "The New York Times" characterized it, arsenic a toxic relationship. It is shameful. It is ugly. It happened successful a acheronian play of his life.
And the Maine voters that I met said they don't similar it. They knew that helium had these chapters. They are consenting to widen him grace and redemption, and they're focused present connected what he's moving for. But I bash not deliberation we should beryllium attacking her.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So it is his campaign, the Platner campaign, that described the accuser arsenic a GOP operative that – who has dedicated her vocation to electing Republicans. She is simply a conservative.
Would you counsel the run to halt attacking her?
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Absolutely. They should not onslaught her. They should not onslaught the "New York Times" reporters who wrote the story. I cognize those reporters. They person written things captious of me. That's what journalists do. Donald Trump is the 1 who attacks the press. Our enactment doesn't onslaught the press.
Our enactment believes that you dainty women with equality and respect successful each aspects of their lives. Graham Platner did not bash that successful the aboriginal 2000s.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: He should conscionable accidental what helium has said to Maine voters. That was a shameful play successful his life. He's ashamed of that conduct.
And that's what makes him different, is that he's taken accountability for that play of his life. Others, similar Trump, person ne'er taken accountability.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you mentioned the PTSD, and helium has been precise unfastened astir that, what helium went through, coming backmost from, I believe, 3 tours successful Iraq, and past helium worked successful a backstage capableness successful Afghanistan.
But immoderate veterans groups person said that, you know, he's fundamentally utilizing it arsenic an excuse for atrocious behavior…
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: I don't think…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … and maligning them successful that way.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: It's not an excuse. It doesn't warrant him being successful toxic relationships oregon saying misogynistic things.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because it sounds similar it's being utilized arsenic an excuse.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Well, I don't presumption – successful fact, successful my remarks, I said it's not an excuse. It's – but it's the truth. It's his information of who helium was.
But what it should archer america is, we broke a batch of radical successful this state by sending radical to Iraq. Susan Collins sent radical to Iraq. And now, connected the 100th time of a warfare successful Iran, we're breaking much people. Gas is done the roof.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Food is done the roof. And this Iran warfare is an amerciable war, immoral war, an unstrategic war. And Graham Platner is moving to halt it.
That is the large contented that Maine voters were talking about…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: … the warfare that's expanding state prices, the deficiency of wellness care.
But I don't judge PTSD should beryllium an excuse for atrocious behavior. But we bash request to admit the toll these wars are taking connected people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
And Platner did protestation against the war, but that was earlier helium enlisted successful the Marines…
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … and past subsequently worked successful a backstage capableness successful Afghanistan, different warfare zone.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Well, helium was patriotic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Look, I ran against the warfare successful Iraq successful 2003. That was however I started. He was opposed to the war.
We made a mistake by getting into the warfare successful Iraq.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Now, helium served the country, but 1 of the reasons helium went into PTSD, if you speech to him, is, helium said, I realized that my work did not person a intent for doing good.
And present you've got Susan Collins, who has been an apologist for the warfare successful Iran connected this 100-day – what person we achieved? You inactive person an Iranian authorities there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: They inactive person the atomic substance there. The state prices are done the roof. And wherefore is Platner successful the race? Because he's saying, halt these overseas wars.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
So, it conscionable – I rise this due to the fact that I person heard Democrats reason implicit this issue, and the interest that they are ceding the motivation precocious crushed that they privation to clasp successful bid to basal connected it and knock Republicans, right?
CBS News has spoken to a erstwhile run authoritative who expressed interest astir the deficiency of vetting of Platner.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Well, look…
MARGARET BRENNAN: This sounds similar it's conscionable – you know, this is conscionable politics.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Like I said, the radical successful Maine were not surprised. I mean, it was a astonishment to the nationalist story.
They knew that, erstwhile helium was successful D.C., helium had shameful parts of his life. Then helium came back. He started an oyster farm. He was connected the water for years. He recovered himself. But the large contented for voters, successful my view, is, are you for these wars? Are you for taxing billionaires? Are you for nationalist wellness insurance?
And that's the contrast. And the run is simply a vetting process, and the voters of Maine are asking these pugnacious questions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The run is the vetting process?
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Well, the superior campaign. I mean, it's been a twelvemonth of campaigning that helium has – that helium has had.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can helium past different scandal? You person 5 months here.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Well, it depends.
What, I'm not – you know, I mean, obviously, if determination was immoderate grounds that comes retired that determination is existent home unit oregon assault, I person zero tolerance for that. I led the combat against the Epstein class, which has been a cover-up for intersexual abuse, with Thomas Massie.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: I person been astatine the forefront of championing women's rights and rights of survivors. But present you person a lawsuit of idiosyncratic who had a acheronian section successful his life, was successful toxic relationships, was ashamed astir it, who served this country.
And the Maine voters are saying, look, let's springiness him immoderate grace, and his absorption is stopping these wars.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: And it's getting nationalist wellness insurance, and it's taking connected economical inequality.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. And that is the progressive connection that you are supporting.
Ro Khanna, convey you for your time.
REPRESENTATIVE RO KHANNA: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We volition beryllium close back.
We crook present to the apical Democrat connected the Intelligence Committee, Representative Jim Himes, who joins america this greeting from Greenwich, Connecticut.
Welcome backmost to Face the Nation.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES (D-Connecticut): Good to beryllium with you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman, President Trump appointed the Federal Housing Finance Agency head, Bill Pulte, to beryllium the adjacent manager of nationalist intelligence.
The president said it is temporary, but, adjacent successful that acting role, helium could enactment successful it for implicit 200 days, and it would bypass legislature approval. Pulte himself was Senate-confirmed for the lodging job. Three Democrats voted for him. Do you cognize if helium has a information clearance to bash the quality work?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, that's a precise constrictive question, Margaret.
I person heard a legislator said that helium did not person a information clearance, but that's astir beside the point, right? He doesn't person an iota of nationalist information experience. And the president is putting him successful this astir delicate of roles.
And, you know, you pointed retired that helium was confirmed for the benignant of obscure Federal Housing Finance Agency job. This was earlier helium utilized that occupation to effort to spell aft the president's governmental enemies, Adam Schiff and Letitia James.
And truthful present we've got a small spot much information connected Bill – Bill Pulte. And the crushed this is truthful arguable is that we cognize that's his distinguishing feature. He's going to bash immoderate it is that helium believes is successful the president's governmental interests.
And determination is nary mode that the authorities and assets of the quality assemblage tin beryllium successful the hands of an idiosyncratic who has showed that his sole crushed for being successful Washington is to bash the president's governmental laundry.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the president did accidental helium wants Pulte to find retired much astir the 2020 election. At this point, is determination thing Congress tin bash to halt him from taking connected this role?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, you know, you haven't asked astir it, but, you know, this Pulte nomination, which, by the way, created bipartisan outrage – you saw the nationalist commentary from my Republican colleagues.
The president did this 10 days earlier the expiration of our astir important and besides precise arguable postulation authority. That's FISA 702, right? I mean, I conscionable heard Senator Warner picture it arsenic throwing a grenade into a very, precise delicate situation.
And so, no, tin – I mean, tin Congress bash thing to halt this? Not really. But the president has present assured done this assignment that the azygous astir important quality postulation tool, astatine a clip erstwhile the Iranians are, you know, reasoning astir conducting operations abroad, possibly successful the United States – I mean, you conscionable could not person travel up with worse timing for what is astir apt the worst assignment into the quality assemblage I person ever seen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, this was a arguable authorization. You've been moving truly hard connected trying to person some Democrats and Republicans to widen it adjacent earlier Bill Pulte was chosen.
We know, yesterday, the Republican chairs of Senate Intel and Judiciary sent a missive to the White House saying expect a lapse successful the postulation of overseas quality aboriginal this week. So, however bash you get astir this? Because it sounds similar determination is readying for this cardinal surveillance instrumentality you accidental is truthful important to conscionable not beryllium successful place.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Yes.
No, I saw the missive from Tom Cotton and Chuck Grassley. And, look, I think, astatine 1 level, they're acknowledging reality, which is that the Pulte assignment has taken 702 reauthorization disconnected the table. You know, we voted successful the House and passed a measure with 42 Democrats.
I volition archer you that astatine slightest fractional of those Democrats are gone, due to the fact that they volition say, look, I – I wasn't precise comfy with this authorization to statesman with. And we don't request to get into wherefore it's controversial, but it is controversial.
But, with Bill Pulte, who is, you know, perfectly dedicated to abusing authorities, no, I'm not there. And truthful you saw successful the Senate yesterday a nonaccomplishment to proceed connected a reauthorization.
So the lone close reply here, Margaret, the lone close reply – and I don't person a batch of assurance that it's going to hap – is that the president says, you know, oops, that was a mistake, and pulls the Bill Pulte assignment successful favour of idiosyncratic who volition springiness not conscionable Democrats, but everybody, much assurance that this is idiosyncratic with immoderate acquisition who won't maltreatment quality authorities.
That's the lone mode retired of this mess. And, you know, President Trump could bash that close now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it sounds similar you're saying Democrats are going to withhold their votes until Pulte's enactment is pulled.
The president often doesn't backmost down, arsenic you know. Is – is the White House, is Marco Rubio, who was up connected Capitol Hill conscionable a fewer days ago, moving successful immoderate mode with Democrats to find an acceptable alternate present to Bill Pulte?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Well, retrieve 2 things.
Number one, wherever I work, successful the House of Representatives, we already passed the FISA reauthorization bill. So the question you inquire is truly a question for the Senate. I conjecture the Senate could conscionable vote…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, but this is the happening lasting successful the way, you're saying, right?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: It's – well, the Senate needs to walk a measure oregon walk the House bill, right.
So, my constituent is that the House already passed a bill. Now, by the way, if we had to walk different measure successful the discourse of Bill Pulte, I don't deliberation we could, but, you know, it's not Marco Rubio. You said, is Marco Rubio moving with Democrats to find an alternate to Bill Pulte?
MARGARET BRENNAN: I know.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: That's – that's not the mode this works, right? The president needs to sober up and recognize that this assignment is arguably, successful the – successful the – you know, you know, handbasket of atrocious appointments helium has made, this is astir apt the worst and astir dangerous.
So, I mean, I anticipation helium tin find a mode out, due to the fact that you're right, helium doesn't similar to backmost down, but he's besides not going to similar the violent attacks that mightiness hap if determination is nary 702 postulation authority, because, look, you know, Tom Cotton tin effort to accidental that this is simply a Democratic contented each helium wants, but the Bill Pulte assignment was, you know, panned successful a – successful a beardown bipartisan way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
But, conscionable to beryllium clear, you're saying that the Senate has to ballot connected the measure that the House sent up. If they marque immoderate changes, would you inactive ballot for FISA reauthorization if Pulte is successful the spot?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: So, the lone mode – truthful the House passed a bill; 42 Democrats supported it. That would not beryllium existent today. So, you know, I suppose…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You would withhold your ballot this clip around?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: And I don't deliberation it tin happen. I person – good – well, again, it's – this – it's – the shot is successful the Senate's court.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: The House passed it.
I don't deliberation – look, if I had to ballot again connected this thing, knowing Bill Pulte's background, acquisition and what he's done successful this obscure national agency, I don't deliberation I could look myself successful the reflector successful the greeting and say, yeah, this is simply a guy…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: … who should, you know, person power and entree to this authority.
And, look, I deliberation – I deliberation there's tons of Democrats and Republicans who consciousness that way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I reached retired to you, wanting to besides talk to you astir Ukraine earlier this contention erupted present with Bill Pulte.
You were conscionable there. You were gathering with President Zelenskyy. Just successful the past fewer days, Ukraine has carried retired immoderate precise heavy strikes, St. Petersburg, some, what 600 miles into Russian territory. How bash you justice wherever the warfare is astatine this infinitesimal successful time? Is Russia inactive winning?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: No, Russia is not winning. And, I mean, that's the headline, right? Ukraine is present winning, by immoderate standard, right?
On a – connected a nett ground – you know, the beforehand lines are moving a mates of quadrate miles present oregon there, but, connected a nett basis, the Ukrainians are present retaking territory. The Ukrainians are inflicting a mind-boggling fig of deaths connected the Russians.
You know, for each quadrate mile that the Russians move, they're giving 250, 300 Russian men successful fatalities. You know, the Russian casualties are similar 30,000 a month. It's conscionable staggering. I mean, it's similar a – it's similar a Vietnam each 2 months for the Russians there.
And, arsenic you pointed out, the Ukrainians are present striking heavy into Russian territory successful a mode that has compromised, you know, 30 percent oregon truthful of their – of the Russian refining capacity. So, marque nary mistake. The Ukrainians are winning this war.
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Israel and Iran, determination is immoderate reporting, some successful "The New York Times" and different tv network, that the U.S. has accrued its counterintelligence menace against Israel, immoderate specifics determination astir them spying connected American officials.
Is that accurate? Has the U.S. raised its counterintelligence menace level against Israel?
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: Yes, I – I'm – I can't truly remark connected what we're doing with respect to counterintelligence.
But it is worthy reflecting connected the information that you spot a divergence present betwixt U.S. argumentation and Israeli policy. I wasn't connected the telephone call, truthful I can't validate that it happened the mode it was reported successful the press.
But, of course, the property reported that President Trump was screaming obscenities into the telephone astatine the – astatine Prime Minister Netanyahu, due to the fact that the president, of course, is precise motivated to get this struggle over. He knows the effect of $1.50 summation successful state prices connected his governmental fortunes and his party's governmental fortunes.
So, you know, we – Israel is not, though they are an ally, they are not a subordinate of the Five Eyes agreement, successful which we hold not to spy connected each other, and that benignant of thing. So, again, without answering your question, which I cannot do…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HIMES: … you know, this is simply a infinitesimal successful clip wherever the president is astatine likelihood with the Israeli leader.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we volition proceed to way that story.
Jim Himes, convey you for your clip this morning.
Face the Nation volition beryllium backmost successful a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We spell present to Republican Congressman Don Bacon, who joins america from Omaha, Nebraska.
Welcome backmost to Face the Nation.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON (R-Nebraska): Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before we get to nationalist security, I privation to inquire you astir authorities and campaigner quality.
Last month, Texas Republicans chose to marque Ken Paxton their Senate nominee, contempt the fact, arsenic Texas A.G., helium was impeached by the Republican-controlled House connected aggregate charges of maltreatment of office, including bribery.
His woman is divorcing him connected what she called biblical grounds due to the fact that of adultery, and helium was indicted successful 2015 connected securities fraud charges that were aboriginal dropped. Despite each this, the president backed him implicit sitting Senator John Cornyn, and truthful did Texas Republicans.
For your party, does Trump's favour transportation much value than character?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: I think, successful galore cases, it does.
His endorsement successful a superior is often – carries – carries the astir weight. I deliberation it was a mistake. I deliberation this has wounded the president. A batch of senators consciousness precise adjacent to Senator Cornyn. He was a large money raiser. He helped a batch of these Republicans get elected each implicit the country, truthful there's a batch of loyalty to John Cornyn.
In fact, I cognize him too, and I respect the guy. And present they've – we've nominated a feline successful Texas that is astir apt the astir susceptible successful a wide election, and it puts that spot up for grabs. So, it was – I don't deliberation it was a omniscient decision.
And I would accidental 1 different origin present is, the Democrat nominee. I deliberation he's besides beauteous weak, though, successful Texas. So, I deliberation they some – some sides person nominated radical that are susceptible successful a general.
But John Cornyn could person won the spot easily, and present the Republicans volition beryllium spending a batch of wealth to clasp it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: And I deliberation it was a mistake.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I cognize you person chosen to retire, but if you were having to run and explicate each this, including the higher state prices, however would you transportation voters?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: Well, I effort to – successful my case, I effort to amusement – I effort to bash what's right, whether it's President Trump's presumption oregon not his position.
And I conscionable effort to look voters successful the oculus that say, hey, I enactment Ukraine. I deliberation tariffs are a mistake. I person votes to backmost it up.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: I besides enactment the information that we secured the border.
I enactment mostly what we're doing successful Iran, due to the fact that Iran has been…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: … waging warfare against america for 47 years.
So, I conscionable effort to telephone balls and strikes, and I effort to beryllium honest, and I effort to do, erstwhile I'm elected, what I run on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, well, we'll fto you telephone immoderate of those balls and strikes connected the different broadside of this commercialized interruption that I person to take. So, delight enactment with us.
We person much questions for Congressman Bacon and a batch much Face the Nation. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We volition beryllium close backmost with a batch much Face the Nation with Congressmen Bacon and much questions. Should the authorities modulate artificial intelligence?
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome backmost to "FACE THE NATION."
We instrumentality present to our speech with Nebraska Republican Congressman Don Bacon.
Congressman, I privation to spell to Europe and speech astir Ukraine but fto maine archetypal inquire you astir what was said astatine Normandy connected Saturday.
Secretary Hegseth seemed, successful his remarks, to nexus migration to the bequest of the D-Day landings by allied forces who were liberating Europe from the Nazis.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VC)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Sadly, today, antithetic European beaches are stormed by different, unsafe ideologies. Beaches successful Spain and Italy and Greece and Bulgaria, boats and men arrive. When volition European capitals bash thing astir that invasion?
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm not definite who the allies were successful that analogy, but I wonderment what you marque of Hegseth's remarks?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON (R-NE): You know, Normandy's a clip to observe a large day. You know, it was – I've been connected the beaches of Omaha. And, you know, we mislaid astir 3,000 troops connected that formation connected 1 day. That's wherever the absorption should person been. It's a accidental to observe with our allies. We worked unneurotic to decision Nazi Germany.
And 1 of the concerns that galore of america person erstwhile it comes to this medication and peculiarly the Pentagon close now, they're precise captious of Europe. They're captious of the E.U. They're captious of NATO. They're captious of a batch of the countries that marque up NATO. And you ne'er perceive them knock Russia. And that bothers us. Why are they truthful anemic connected the Russia, which affects Ukraine overseas policy, their argumentation toward the Baltics.
What they are speedy to ever privation to knock Europe. It reminds maine of the connection that Secretary Hegseth sent to the vice president connected Signal erstwhile helium said however overmuch helium loathed Europe. Well, I deliberation that's not bully for America. It's not bully for our nationalist security. And we – our allies, we person to enactment unneurotic to antagonistic Russia, to antagonistic China, to assistance america successful the Middle East. And it's changeless criticism, on with the president's threats towards Greenland, arsenic good arsenic Canada, it's wounded us. Our allies person mislaid a batch of trust.
So, I don't deliberation these comments by the caput were helpful.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, I cognize you person been taking a basal against Russia and for Ukraine. You did that this past week, on with immoderate of your colleagues, arsenic you enactment it successful remarks connected the House floor, "this is our Churchill infinitesimal oregon our Chamberlain infinitesimal and, by God I'm going take Churchill." Seventeen Republicans joined you. The past clip we saw a ballot connected Ukraine aid, determination were 100 Republicans supporting it. What was going connected present and however bash you get the Senate to instrumentality up what you did get implicit the line?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: Well, a mates things here.
First of all, the president has had a argumentation of wanting to negociate a settlement. I don't deliberation it's working. He has – excessively overmuch has tried to enactment similar an umpire, trying to enactment with 2 antithetic radical successful a boxing match. But that's not the case. You person a state that's invading Ukraine. They're bombing cities each night. There's a bully versus evil present and America should be, you know, unabashedly for the close broadside here. The democracy, the state that wants escaped markets, the state that wasn't to align with us.
Russia hates us. I don't cognize wherefore the president can't spot that. Putin hates the United States. He hates what we stands for. So, that's a occupation there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: When it comes to the House, the talker has not wanted his – not wanted to get successful beforehand of the president connected this. And truthful helium lobbied beauteous hard, and we telephone whipping, against this vote. And I deliberation helium was wrong.
I waited for a twelvemonth and a fractional successful this Congress to get thing done connected Ukraine and we've done nothing. There's been nary votes, nary policies from the enactment present oregon the president to enactment a state that's warring for its life. I hold with the – your erstwhile interrogation that Ukraine has the precocious manus close now, but Russia is bombing those cities each night, and we should beryllium determination to assistance them to support against these ballistic rocket attacks.
The talker whipped against us, and that's wherefore it drove that fig down. I deliberation helium was wrong. He says he's pro-Ukraine, but the actions talk louder than words.
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Zelenskyy was connected this programme past Sunday asking for much interceptors, but besides helium made wide that helium wants affable countries successful Europe who person a bully narration with the U.S. To beryllium capable to nutrient the Patriots, arsenic well. I cognize your colleague, Mike Turner, wrote to the president past week asking for that portion to beryllium delivered on.
Do you enactment it? I mean, what's the holdup?
REPRESENTATIVE DON BACON: I bash enactment it. We cannot nutrient capable Patriots close present to grip what we're doing successful Iran to supply Ukraine, but besides we request to person these aforesaid rocket defenses successful Asia for whether it's North Korea oregon China, and we're not producing enough. So, we should look for our allies to assistance make further accumulation lines. I cognize Ukraine would emotion to assistance bash that, and they request these missiles precise badly.
What I would bash successful this case, and we person a debased stockpile due to the fact that of Iran, I would beryllium down with our allies and conscionable look astatine what assets we person and travel up with a program to springiness anti-ballistic rocket exertion and capabilities to Ukraine. And we can't bash it all, but we should beryllium down with the allies and physique a program to get it done.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Don Bacon, Republican from Nebraska, convey you truthful much, sir.
We'll beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should the authorities modulate A.I. And if so, how?
We're joined by CBS News cyber contributor Chris Krebs, who ran CISA successful the archetypal Trump administration, and Ben Buchanan, who advised President Biden and is present a prof astatine Johns Hopkins and an advisor to Anthropic.
Good to person you some here.
CHRIS KREBS: Good to beryllium here. Thanks for having us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, this was a large alteration due to the fact that President Trump and his advisers intelligibly saw thing that led to a displacement successful their policy. They were precise airy touch. Literally don't bash anything. And present determination was this enforcement order, conscionable a fewer days ago, to person immoderate measurement towards, I don't cognize if we tin telephone it regulating it due to the fact that it's voluntary, but that the companies person to voluntarily supply their precise delicate exertion 30 days earlier releasing it to fto the authorities person the archetypal look. What does this accomplish, Chris?
CHRIS KREBS: Well, I deliberation the biggest interest was, portion determination had been a consciousness that generative A.I. and immoderate of the much precocious tools were giving cyber attackers and defenders amended capabilities, it wasn't until astir 2 months agone wherever Anthropic released their Mythos – oregon astatine slightest announced their Mythos preview that truly brought it, I think, to the forefront with furniture secretaries similar Scott Bessent successful Treasury and immoderate different folks. They became much concerned. They spell to the White House, say, hey, we request to instrumentality a spot much of a proactive approach. And truthful –
MARGARET BRENNAN: They got acrophobic due to the fact that concern entities –
CHRIS KREBS: Yes, I mean successful portion the Treasury – the concern assemblage banks, Jamie Dimon astatine J.P. Morgan and a fig of others were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we request to pause, we request to deliberation astir what we're doing here, and we request to instrumentality a spot much robust security-focused attack connected however we – arsenic this avalanche of vulnerabilities that volition beryllium discovered by A.I., however we hole and guarantee that we're not going to beryllium overwhelmed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Ben, 30 days for the authorities to behaviour a afloat information vetting. Is that imaginable oregon is this conscionable benignant of model dressing to accidental the government's doing something?
BEN BUCHANAN (Former White House Special Adviser for Artificial Intelligence): In the Biden medication we built a capableness astatine the A.I. Safety Institute to bash quick, voluntary investigating for A.I. systems, including for cyber risks and for bio risks. So, I deliberation the tests themselves tin spell quickly. But that doesn't mean the authorities is going to bash that successful a fulsome way. So, the jury, I think, is inactive retired connected however the president chooses to instrumentality this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
BEN BUCHANAN: But the timing present I deliberation is not 1 of the pieces that worries me. It's much getting the details of what does this investigating look for?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. And what's the consequence?
BEN BUCHANAN: Exactly. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, like, tin the authorities halt it? The full hazard and interest had been this would get successful the mode of America's arms contention with China. Does this get successful the mode of America's arms contention with China?
BEN BUCHANAN: Not arsenic – not arsenic it's presently written. No, I don't deliberation so. And I don't adjacent deliberation adjacent much stringent versions would.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
BEN BUCHANAN: I bash deliberation what's happening present is you spot the authorities wrestling with thing that we wrestled with successful the Biden administration. This exertion is coming from the backstage sector. And successful galore respects it's the archetypal revolutionary exertion that is chiefly successful its existent signifier from the backstage sector.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Meaning?
BEN BUCHANAN: Think (ph) astir nukes oregon abstraction oregon truthful overmuch more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
BEN BUCHANAN: The authorities has and has had a relation successful each of those technologies, inventing them, shaping them. It doesn't truly person that successful A.I. So, the Trump medication is present trying to fig out, however does it privation to asseverate itself successful this caller domain that really is rather antithetic conceptually than galore of the ones that came earlier it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And, successful Congress, they haven't regulated really.
CHRIS KREBS: Yes. In fact, the enforcement bid is precise wide erstwhile it says, this is not a licensing regime. There is not a pre-clearance mechanism. But it does acceptable up a operation wherever the NSA, the National Security Agency, tin specify what a covered exemplary is, and past bring those models into a – the 30-day adjacent (ph) review. And past you tin look astatine possibly what immoderate of the vulnerabilities that could beryllium discovered and past you tin stock those retired with defenders, with industry, truthful that they are prepared.
But separately this week you had Congressman Obernolte present draught authorities that whitethorn springiness a request for submitting immoderate of these subsequently covered models for adjacent (ph) reappraisal and auditing by autarkic bodies connected a doubly a twelvemonth basis.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Unclear if that's got a future, though, that legislation.
CHRIS KREBS: But it – but it's starting the conversation, which I deliberation is critical.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
So, the president did accidental to reporters that each the large A.I. leaders are coming to the White House rather soon. He has said he's looking into the U.S. government, taking an ownership involvement successful immoderate A.I. companies. Meaning, america U.S. taxpayers would ain stakes. And it's been reported that OpenAI's Sam Altman besides pitched an thought to Senator Bernie Sanders astir transferring 50 percent of the equity of the apical A.I. companies to a nationalist fund.
To some of you, would that work? What does that do? Is that conscionable retrofitting what you said, which is the authorities needs to person immoderate benignant of manus successful here?
BEN BUCHANAN: It's surely conceptually trying to set – code that question of what's the narration betwixt the nationalist and backstage sector. I deliberation thing that is that drastic, the devil is truly successful the details and we don't person immoderate details of this gathering oregon adjacent of Senator Sanders' proposal. So, I deliberation we've got a agelong mode to spell successful making that real, and it feels, successful Congress, with maine of, what does it mean to fto the backstage assemblage tally here. So, I deliberation there's a batch of complexity that's yet to beryllium worked retired connected that proposal.
CHRIS KREBS: And connected that note, it besides creates a important governance challenge, you know, erstwhile you control, erstwhile you ain portion of – immoderate the instrumentality is, it creates a struggle of involvement and immoderate self-dealing, perhaps, if you're besides trying to modulate it.
So, again, the details present are what's going to matter. It is absorbing that it's astir a horseshoe effect wherever you person some Republicans and Democrats that are talking about, you know, possibly we request to instrumentality an ownership involvement successful these models.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They look scared. I mean that seems to beryllium the takeaway that's forcing a alteration successful position. And, I mean, Anthropic, the institution you advise, called for an planetary intermission successful A.I. improvement due to the fact that of however accelerated the systems are improving. As I recognize it, the concerns the models are becoming truthful precocious they tin hole themselves without humans being involved.
BEN BUCHANAN: Well, the dynamic present that's precise absorbing is what we telephone recursive self-improvement. So, the A.I. systems assistance the A.I. companies make the adjacent mentation of the system. And that tin amusement up successful a fig of ways. One of the ways it tin amusement up is the A.I. systems constitute the machine codification for the adjacent version. Another 1 is the A.I. systems bash the probe and immoderate of the mathematics and underlying conceptual enactment that leads to efficiencies successful the adjacent system. And present we progressively spot A.I. systems helping plan the chips that are the lifeblood of this.
So, I deliberation it is the lawsuit for a assortment of reasons, recursive self- improvement, monolithic infrastructure investments. We should expect these systems to get – proceed to get precise good, precise quickly. And that does rise existent nationalist information questions nary substance who is president.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you expect that astir companies are going to comply with this voluntary 30-day review, Chris?
CHRIS KREBS: Well, I deliberation there's a abstracted mechanics that astir apt has much teeth. And that's what was issued connected Friday, a nationalist information statesmanlike memorandum connected the nationalist information endeavor successful the usage of A.I., which allows the Department of Defense to usage the powerfulness of the purse. The procurement mechanisms to dictate what the policies are and who needs to taxable to reviews and who will, you know, travel definite statesmanlike – or, rather, department-level direction. So, I deliberation the enforcement bid is an absorbing framing for a government-wide approach, but the existent movement, I deliberation the existent teeth is what's happening astatine the Department of Defense successful dictating what the policies are for however vendors tin dictate to the authorities connected however models tin beryllium used.
BEN BUCHANAN: In the Biden medication successful 2023, we brought the companies to the White House to conscionable with the president and they each made voluntary commitments, which they past followed done on, to bash autarkic reddish squad investigating for risks similar cyber, for bio, to people their investigating results to the public. And they followed done connected that. So, I bash deliberation there's a past present of companies moving with government, but I fishy some sides are going to person to bash a batch much arsenic this exertion gets better.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I callback during the Biden medication determination was this statement betwixt the U.S. and China not to fto A.I. interaction nukes.
BEN BUCHANAN: That's right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As I recognize it –
BEN BUCHANAN: That's right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There's treatment astir the hazard towards biologic weapons. OpenAI, Anthropic and Google's A.I. inaugural signed a missive saying determination should beryllium a instrumentality to support A.I. retired of bio, biologic weapons.
BEN BUCHANAN: Chris spoke precise well, and helium spoke precise good astir the cyber dimensions of the existent acceptable of models. I would look astatine these existent models not arsenic cyber models but arsenic mostly susceptible models. And the bio frontier is –
MARGARET BRENNAN: What does that mean? Sorry.
BEN BUCHANAN: They tin bash adept tasks successful a wide assortment of areas, not conscionable successful cyber. Also successful bio and the like. This was thing that we were precise alert to successful the Biden administration. There's a agelong conception connected bio successful the president's enforcement bid successful 2023. There's upside. You know, A.I. tin bash a batch for aesculapian discovery, but determination besides is morganatic interest that A.I. is outperforming Ph.D. level virologists connected virology questions, and that could abet a bio limb risk. That is not hypothetical.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK, good present you're scaring me.
I mean bash they request to beryllium bilateral agreements betwixt countries oregon this is due to the fact that we person the borderline astatine this moment. America needs to acceptable the rules of the satellite for everyone. I mean fundamentally they did for atomic weapons, right? We had – we had them first. But it was retired of fear.
CHRIS KREBS: Look, A.I., emerging technologies, quantum is going to present, I think, the aforesaid problem. But we're present entering this governance abstraction wherever exertion improvement is moving faster than antiauthoritarian oversight and power tin allow, oregon provide.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. They're (INAUDIBLE).
CHRIS KREBS: And I deliberation your earlier question astir they're scared, there's fear, it's – it's they're overwhelmed. They don't truly recognize the technology. It's precise complex. Understanding however to meaningfully intervene that's accordant with the American regulatory tradition, that's airy touch, escaped markets, superior markets, we are seeing a spot of a – I deliberation a disagreement present connected however to interact. But again, you are seeing immoderate absorbing parallels successful absorption of question that's accordant betwixt the administration, the Congress and Democrats and Republicans that recognize thing needs to beryllium done. We're conscionable not rather definite what the mechanisms are conscionable yet.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. And the exertion is moving truly rapidly portion that's being debated.
Gentlemen, convey you for bottommost lining this for us.
We'll beryllium close backmost successful a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: On Friday we spoke with Rye Barcott, a Marine seasoned who was the laminitis of With Honor, an enactment that supports subject and nationalist work veterans for higher office. His caller publication is "Courage Can Save Us: Ten Extraordinary Americans and the Fight for our Future."
We began by asking astir the group's ngo and wherefore it's truthful important now.
(BEGIN VT)
RYE BARCOTT, AUTHOR, "COURAGE CAN SAVE US": We helped enlistee and bid and assistance elite veterans to instrumentality our pledge to service with integrity, civility and courage, including the courageousness to enactment crossed enactment lines astatine a hard clip to bash so.
Through that process, I've gotten to cognize galore of them rather well. And so, what I decided to bash was prime 10, an adjacent equilibrium of 5 and five, each of whom were successful bureau astatine a precise difficult, challenging clip for the state and truly unpack wherever their courageousness came from and past look astatine moments of courage, some successful subject service, arsenic good arsenic successful authorities and elected office. Sometimes that courageousness is quieter, it's much of a motivation courageousness versus a carnal courage, which they whitethorn person encountered successful the military. But that was the – that was my attack to this book, which I've written principally for students. I'd similar to spot much students being capable to survey courage. I specify courageousness arsenic a signifier of service. That is taking hazard successful the work of thing larger than yourself. It's not self- interested. It's serving what's referred to oftentimes arsenic the communal good.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you bash request to animate younger people, it sounds like, due to the fact that erstwhile we look astatine the polling, wide 17 percent of Americans, according to Pew, spot the authorities successful Washington to bash what's close each oregon astir of the time. Our ain CBS polling has showed the younger generation's dispirited.
BARCOTT: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They're anxious astir their futures. So, however bash you animate them to articulation a strategy that they judge is broken?
BARCOTT: Yes. I mean I deliberation a batch of young radical are – they're feeling lonely. There's a deficiency of a consciousness of purpose. One of the large things that I recovered done subject work was that it gives you a – it gives you immoderate – a consciousness of thing larger than yourself and a communal ngo with Americans from each antithetic walks of life.
So, 1 of the cardinal takeaways for the publication is to find a – to find a way into nationalist service. And that's 1 of the goals with this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you interest we are astatine a constituent wherever the benignant of motivation courageousness you're describing is astir intolerable to fill? Because erstwhile we look astatine the benignant of partisanship retired there, and past you look at, for example, the redistricting that whitethorn fastener successful that partisanship and disincentivize the happening you accidental you privation to encourage, bipartisanship, the forces are benignant of against you.
BARCOTT: The forces are truly going against us. And astir Americans privation courageousness but consciousness similar they spot precise small of it oregon nary of it. And what I wanted to radiance a airy connected is to accidental that this inactive exists. It inactive exists. Here are 10 examples of it. It's hard. We request to observe it erstwhile it – erstwhile it arises.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You know, past subject work doesn't warrant a flawless life. I mean you've gestured to that.
BARCOTT: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But we've been talking astir this with candidates – the Democratic Senate campaigner of Maine, for example, different lawmakers. Do you ever look astatine candidates and say, contempt your service, I can't enactment you? How bash you marque that call?
BARCOTT: We do. We lone – we usually lone bash astir 10 percent of the wide vets that run. This twelvemonth determination is much vets moving than immoderate twelvemonth before. It's an summation of implicit 30 percent crossed enactment lines. Quite encouraging. Many of those vets are not moving successful races that are winnable. So, that's 1 criteria. But really, fundamentally, we look astatine character. And you person to perpetrate to this pledge to service with integrity, civility and courage. We ticker however radical behaviour themselves connected the run trail. We interrogation individuals that served with them successful the subject nether duress. And it's lone astir 10 percent of the veterans that marque the cut.
Once they service successful office, they truly request to beryllium committed to it. They person to – they person to support that spot crossed enactment lines. That doesn't mean that they'll hold connected each issue. Most issues they don't. But they'll support spot and relationships. It doesn't ever work.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You speech astir the pledge. When we looked it up, the pledge is to bring civility to office, enactment successful a cross-partisan veterans caucus. You asked members besides to pledge conscionable to conscionable with a subordinate of the opposing enactment erstwhile a period and past articulation them successful important bipartisan legislation.
BARCOTT: That's right. And importantly –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can we ticker (INAUDIBLE) connected that?
BARCOTT: I mean it seems to person –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congress isn't legislating these days.
BARCOTT: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, tin we amp it up and grow it more?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
BARCOTT: I anticipation so. We person continued to turn and support that cohesion, but it has been difficult. I mean determination person been galore moments implicit the past 8 years wherever we've – where, you know, relationships get frayed. I mean January 6th was 1 example.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
BARCOTT: You know, galore others. And this matters for the country, but it is not easy. And, you know, gathering unsocial is 1 thing, but past really being consenting to person the courageousness to enactment your sanction with different and say, we're going to bash this and we're going to basal for this, adjacent though I mightiness get attacked for moving with the enemy. I mean it's a brainsick thing.
There's a – there's a survey retired that 80 percent of Republicans and Democrats, registered Republicans and Democrats, of people astir 40 percent of the state are non-affiliated. But among those that are a affiliated, implicit 80 percent notation to the different broadside arsenic the enemy. I mean that's what we're – and that's wherefore with this publication I deliberation courageousness tin prevention america arsenic a country. The america is the flag. It has a ace successful it. It's not broken, but it has a ace successful it. We're successful a superior spot arsenic a nation. We're turning 250 years old. But astatine the extremity of the day, I judge this is simply a – this is an optimistic outlook. There are a batch of radical that are still, you know, serving for the bully of service. Something that's larger than themselves.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our afloat speech is connected our website, YouTube leafage and podcast platform.
We'll beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for america today. Thank you each for watching. Until adjacent week. For "FACE THE NATION," I'm Margaret Brennan.
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