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On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Weijia Jiang:
- Kevin Hassett, National Economic Council director
- Rep. Tom Suozzi, Democrat of New York
- Director Ken Burns
Click here to browse afloat transcripts from 2025 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
WEIJIA JIANG: I'm Weijia Jiang successful Washington.
And this week connected Face the Nation: President Trump gets a large Independence Day win, arsenic his One Big Beautiful Bill is signed into law.
And devastating flash floods termination dozens successful Texas. Tragedy this vacation weekend, arsenic flash floods expanse done parts of Texas, sidesplitting astatine slightest 50, including 15 children, immoderate of whom were astatine summertime camp. We volition person the latest.
Then: After a agelong week lobbying for votes and cutting deals with his chap Republicans, the president spent the Fourth of July celebrating the nation's 249th day by enacting his signature taxation chopped and spending plan.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): It's truly promises made, promises kept, and we person kept them.
(End VT)
WEIJIA JIANG: But Democrats and adjacent immoderate Republicans are not blessed with the bill's projected indebtedness and shortage increases, cuts to Medicaid and different provisions.
We volition speech with the caput of the White House Economic Council, Kevin Hassett, and New York centrist Democratic Congressman Tom Suozzi astir his party's program to physique connected elector apprehension astir the caller law.
Finally, CBS Evening News co-anchor John Dickerson talks to filmmaker and historiographer Ken Burns astir his caller project, arsenic America moves towards marking our 250th year.
(Begin VT)
KEN BURNS (Documentary Filmmaker): The American Revolution is the astir important lawsuit since the commencement of Christ successful each of satellite history.
(End VT)
WEIJIA JIANG: He volition explicate wherefore the lessons learned by our forefathers inactive use today.
It's each conscionable up connected Face the Nation.
Good morning, and invited to Face the Nation. Margaret is retired today. I'm Weijia Jiang.
We person got a batch to get to, but we bash privation to statesman with the unfolding catastrophe successful Texas, wherever officials accidental astatine slightest 50 radical are dormant and dozens are missing aft devastating flash floods.
CBS News analogous Jason Allen reports from Kerrville, Texas.
(Begin VT)
JASON ALLEN (voice-over): More than 1,300 authorities and section exigency responders are inactive desperately searching the banks of the Guadalupe River this morning, marking cars and homes, picking done piles of debris, trying to find survivors of a historical and deadly flash flood.
The deluge that began aboriginal Friday greeting caused the usually tranquil stream to emergence 26 feet successful lone 45 minutes.
MAN: We're astatine Camp Mystic looking for – for our kids.
JASON ALLEN: Much of the absorption is connected this summertime camp, wherever much than 2 twelve 3rd and 4th people girls are inactive missing. Their parents are desperately searching.
MAN: And past we're looking for places that they're going to perchance beryllium alive. There's implicit 20 of them inactive retired there.
JASON ALLEN: Kerr County does not person an outdoor informing system. That's typically the sirens that are utilized to alert radical to tornadoes oregon different beardown storms.
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, who has been a portion of discussions astir changing the national government's relation successful responding to large disasters, said that the upwind alert strategy needs to beryllium updated to springiness radical much clip and much informing up of utmost weather.
KRISTI NOEM (U.S. Homeland Security Secretary): The National Weather Service has indicated that, with that and NOAA, that we needed to renew this past strategy that has been near successful spot with the national authorities for many, galore years. And that is the reforms that are ongoing.
(End VT)
JASON ALLEN: Texas Governor Greg Abbott has present signed an expanded catastrophe declaration order. You tin spot determination is simply a small spot of rainfall present successful the country this morning, but it's not expected to beryllium thing similar we saw the past mates of days, Weijia.
And though officials accidental that this is inactive an progressive rescue mission, they admit that, arsenic the hours spell by, it becomes little and little apt that they volition find anyone alive.
WEIJIA JIANG: Our hearts are with each those families.
Jason Allen successful Kerrville, Texas, convey you.
We crook present to Kevin Hassett. He is the manager of the National Economic Council and 1 of President Trump's apical advisers. He's besides precise fashionable connected that driveway, wherever I'm usually alongside astir a twelve reporters.
So, Kevin, convey you truthful overmuch for your clip this morning.
I privation to commencement with trade, due to the fact that there's a large deadline coming up connected Wednesday, arsenic you know. That 90-day intermission connected reciprocal tariffs that the president announced backmost successful April is acceptable to end. So far, the U.S. has announced a fewer deals, the U.K., Vietnam, and you're inching person to a last statement with China.
Do you expect to get immoderate much deals done with America's biggest trading partners by Wednesday?
KEVIN HASSETT (Director, National Economic Council): Yes.
First, I bash person to instrumentality a intermission and stock your thoughts and prayers with the radical of Texas. It's an incredible, heartbreaking story. And Kristi Noem and the president person instructed the national authorities to propulsion everything they person got astatine helping the survivors and helping cleanable up that place.
And so, anyway, I'm truly heartbroken contiguous to spot these stories. And I privation you to cognize that, successful the White House, everybody is putting each effort they tin into helping the radical of Texas today.
On trade, there's going to beryllium rather a spot of quality this week. And I deliberation the header of the quality is that determination are going to beryllium deals that are finalized. There are a full fig that Jamieson Greer has negotiated with overseas governments. And past determination are going to beryllium letters that are sent to countries saying, here's however we deliberation it ought to spell due to the fact that the deals aren't precocious enough.
And the header is going to beryllium that countries are agreeing astir the satellite to unfastened their markets up to our products and to let america to enactment immoderate benignant of tariff connected their products erstwhile they travel into the U.S. And precisely what the numbers volition beryllium volition beryllium things that you volition find retired successful the quality this week.
WEIJIA JIANG: And, Kevin, you said determination are going to beryllium deals.
For those truly important trading partners, if there's not a woody by Wednesday, is the president going to widen this pause?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: You know, the United States is ever consenting to speech to everybody astir everything that's going connected successful the world. And determination are deadlines and determination are things that are close. And truthful possibly things volition propulsion backmost the dormant – past the deadline, oregon possibly they won't.
In the end, the president is going to marque that judgment.
WEIJIA JIANG: And you besides mentioned those letters that volition commencement going retired tomorrow, according to President Trump. He said astir 10 to 12 countries volition person them.
Do you – tin you archer america who's going to get 1 and what they say?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: I'm sorry, I can't, due to the fact that – because, again, the portion of the missive that could beryllium happening, right, is that we're adjacent to a deal, we're not truly satisfied with the advancement that we're making successful the deal, and truthful we're saying, OK, good we're going to nonstop a letter, but possibly you get a woody astatine the past infinitesimal too.
Until we spot everything that plays out, I deliberation that we request to conscionable clasp our occurrence and ticker for the quality this week.
WEIJIA JIANG: Is it just to accidental that those notices are going to spell to our smaller trading partners, arsenic you negociate with our bigger ones?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: I deliberation that it could beryllium that it'll beryllium both.
But besides don't hide that, erstwhile we person large commercialized deals, our smaller trading partners could go overmuch bigger trading partners. And that's, I think, 1 of the reasons wherefore countries are racing to acceptable deals up with america up of the deadline.
WEIJIA JIANG: I person to inquire you astir the deadlines, Kevin, to marque these deals, due to the fact that you conscionable mentioned you're ever open. The president said there's not truly immoderate flexibility near betwixt present and Wednesday.
Less than 2 weeks ago, the treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, said that deals would beryllium wrapped up by Labor Day. So I wonderment if – however tin companies program if the goalposts support moving? How tin countries negociate if they don't adjacent cognize however overmuch clip they person left?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Right.
Well, the unsmooth outlines of the deals are becoming wide to everybody, due to the fact that we person immoderate deals, similar the U.K. and the Vietnam deal, that are starting to be, I guess, guidelines for what mightiness happen.
But 1 of the things that we're seeing that's truly absorbing to maine is that radical are conscionable onshoring accumulation to the U.S. astatine a grounds rate. And truthful we person had grounds occupation creation, grounds superior spending. And this is adjacent up of the Big Beautiful Bill. And truthful I deliberation what's happening is that radical are responding to President Trump's imaginable threats to person precocious tariffs connected countries by moving their enactment present into the U.S., which is creating jobs, much than 2 cardinal jobs since helium took office, and raising wages.
You know, wage maturation is heading up towards the really, truly precocious pinnacles that we saw successful 2017. And truthful I deliberation there's a contention close present to get enactment into the U.S. And, successful part, that contention has been kicked disconnected by President Trump.
WEIJIA JIANG: I remember, aft these reciprocal tariffs were announced, you told maine that determination are astir 15 deals that countries were bringing to the president.
How adjacent – if you could springiness america immoderate fig astatine all, what fig are we going to spot this week?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Yes, you volition person – you volition person to get that from Jamieson and the president. I deliberation that we person seen tons of deals that person been finalized by negotiators, and past the president finds things that tin marque them better.
And truthful it's – I'm not going to get up of the president connected the fig of deals.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK, thanks, Kevin. We volition look retired for that.
I privation to determination present to the One Big Beautiful Bill that…
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Yes.
WEIJIA JIANG: … of course, the president signed into instrumentality connected Independence Day.
You person it, and present you person to wage for it. And there's a statement that this measure adds tremendously to the deficit. I cognize that you are truthful acquainted with these numbers. The Yale Budget Lab estimates it volition adhd $3 trillion to the debt. The Tax Foundation says this taxation information of the measure could besides adhd $3 trillion to the deficit.
The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, which factors an involvement connected the debt, says it could adhd up to $5 trillion implicit the adjacent decade. And connected this precise program, adjacent Speaker Johnson answered successful the affirmative erstwhile asked if this measure would adhd implicit $4 trillion to the deficit.
I cognize that the medication says the measure volition really shrink the shortage by $1.5 trillion. Help maine understand…
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Sure.
WEIJIA JIANG: … wherefore determination is specified a drastic quality betwixt your numbers and each those others.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Well – well, archetypal of all, let's retrieve that subject is not democracy. Truth is not democracy.
Our estimates are based connected modeling that we utilized past clip erstwhile I was president of the Council of Economic Advisers to accidental what would hap if we had a bill, however overmuch maturation we would get. And we said – and we were criticized soundly – that we would get 3 percent growth.
And we adjacent had the truly method macroeconomic models that said that we would get 3 percent growth. We tally the aforesaid models done this taxation bill, it's adjacent better. And what we're seeing is that, if you get 3 percent maturation again, past that's $4 trillion much successful gross than the CBO and these different bodies are giving america recognition for.
They person been incorrect successful the past, and they're being incorrect again, successful our belief. But the happening that disappoints maine is that, if I enactment retired a exemplary and I say, hey, here's what's going to happen, we're going to get 3 percent growth, and past it turns retired it's 1.5 percent growth, then, arsenic an world economist, arsenic a scientist, past it's my work to say, what did I get wrong? What did my exemplary miss?
These radical aren't doing that. And that's the happening that I find disappointing, due to the fact that we enactment peer-reviewed world worldly connected the array and said, we're going to get that 3 percent growth, and past we got it close past time. And we judge we're going to get it close this time.
But if you deliberation that 1.8 percent maturation is what's going to hap implicit the adjacent 10 years, past you should hold with the CBO number. But there's different portion of the CBO fig that you request to interest about. And that is that, if we don't walk the bill, past it's the biggest taxation hike successful history.
And with that large taxation hike, then, of course, we would person a recession. The CEA says that we'd person astir a 4 percent driblet successful GDP and suffer 9 cardinal jobs. If we had a 4 percent driblet successful GDP and we mislaid 9 cardinal jobs, what would hap to the deficit?
And truthful I don't deliberation that the CBO has a precise beardown record. I don't deliberation these places person a precise beardown record. And what they request to bash is get backmost to the basics of looking astatine macroeconomic models. There's a truly celebrated macroeconomist successful Harvard named Jim Stock. They should spell backmost and work everything Jim Stock has written for the past 15 years and fold those into their models, and past possibly we could talk.
WEIJIA JIANG: I privation to speech to you, Kevin, astir different fig that I cognize you and the president disagree with, but that Democrats and galore Republicans are disquieted about.
And that's the CBO's projection that arsenic galore arsenic 12 cardinal Americans could suffer Medicaid sum due to the fact that of this law. What is the NEC's estimation for however galore radical could suffer coverage?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Well, yes, let's unbundle that a small bit, because, first, connected the CBO coverage, truthful what are we doing?
So what we're doing is, we're asking for a enactment requirement, but the enactment request is that you request to beryllium looking for enactment oregon adjacent doing unpaid work, and you don't request to bash it until your kids are 14 oregon older. And truthful the thought that that's going to origin a monolithic hemorrhaging successful availability of security doesn't marque a batch of consciousness to us.
And then, if you look astatine the CBO numbers, if you look astatine the large numbers they accidental that radical are going to suffer insurance, astir 5 cardinal of those are radical who person different insurance. There are radical who person 2 types of insurance. And so, therefore, if they suffer one, they're inactive insured.
And truthful the CBO numbers connected that broadside don't marque immoderate consciousness to america astatine all, but, connected the different side, spell backmost to 2017, erstwhile we had enactment requirements for Obamacare, and they said that we'd suffer astir 4 cardinal insured betwixt 2017 and 2019, and astir treble that implicit the adjacent 10 years. And, successful fact, the fig of insured went up, went up rather a bit, by much than 10 million, implicit those 2 years, due to the fact that the bottommost enactment is, the champion mode to get security is to get a job.
And we person got a Big Beautiful Bill that's going to make a batch of occupation instauration and a batch of insurance. And the CBO is conscionable not accounting for that.
And, again, they request to spell backmost and look astatine each the things that they got wrong. You recognize that they're underestimating Medicaid spending by 20 percent. They should look backmost astatine each the things they got incorrect and explicate what they're going to bash to get it close successful the aboriginal and to bash a amended job. And if they bash that, we volition instrumentality them much seriously.
But, close now, I don't deliberation immoderate superior thinker could instrumentality them seriously, due to the fact that they person done truthful incorrect – been truthful incorrect for truthful long. Even backmost – if you spell backmost to erstwhile President Obama passed Obamacare, they got each azygous fig determination incorrect astir however galore radical would get backstage security and however fewer radical would get Medicaid and truthful on.
And truthful their grounds successful this modeling abstraction is astir arsenic atrocious arsenic it's imaginable to be. In fact, you could benignant of rotation the roulette instrumentality and travel up with a amended acceptable of numbers, a amended history, way grounds history, than CBO.
WEIJIA JIANG: Well, Kevin, what astir the enhanced subsidies? Is that fig incorrect too, that the ACA allows astir $705 for radical to assistance wage for their wellness insurance?
That doesn't dependable similar the waste, fraud and maltreatment that I cognize you and the president person talked astir eliminating. That conscionable sounds similar radical who cannot spend coverage, and present it's going to beryllium adjacent much truthful with these subsidies gone.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Right. Well – well, what – what – if you're – if you're looking astatine the – the alteration successful the taxation connected the providers, which is thing that has been a cardinal talking constituent for the Democrats, they accidental that that's going to adjacent down agrarian hospitals, what has happened is that, alternatively than fto the states – the states person this crippled wherever they springiness a dollar to a hospital, and past the national authorities matches the dollar, and past the authorities taxes immoderate of the dollar away.
In different words, that we person an statement with the states that they're going to match, but past they person this instrumentality wherever they taxation the hospitals aft they springiness them money, truthful truly it's the national authorities giving them money. And that's wherefore we person been overspending Medicaid by 20 percent since this instrumentality started happening.
And truthful what we person done is that we person enactment a haircut connected that, but we person besides enactment $50 cardinal into a spot money to marque definite that the agrarian hospitals are determination to dainty the sick.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: And truthful I deliberation this is simply a prudent reform. It's dependable budgetary politics, and I deliberation that nobody's going to suffer their insurance.
WEIJIA JIANG: Kevin Hassett, we volition ticker for however that ages.
Thank you precise much. Really admit your time.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: And if I get it wrong, we volition cheque and we volition speech astir wherefore I got it wrong, I promise.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK.
Thank you. We volition person you back. Thank you precise much, Kevin.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Thanks, Weijia Jiang.
We present crook to Congressman – Face the Nation volition beryllium backmost successful 1 minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
WEIJIA JIANG: We crook present to New York Democratic Congressman Tom Suozzi.
Congressman, convey you truthful overmuch for your clip this morning.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI (D-New York): Yes, acknowledgment truthful overmuch for having me.
WEIJIA JIANG: Well, you conscionable heard from Kevin Hassett.
You know, similar President Trump, helium said, without this bill, it would beryllium 1 of the top taxation hikes for the American public. They accidental it is the top taxation chopped successful American history.
You beryllium connected the Ways and Means Committee, truthful I person to wonderment however you picture it.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: I picture it arsenic the big, disfigured bill, not the Big Beautiful Bill.
It's going to bash a batch of things that are going to wounded a batch of radical successful our country. The biggest one, which you talked astir with Mr. Hassett, is summation the shortage enormously successful the country. And what that does is, that creates inflation, that keeps involvement rates high, that makes it hard for radical to bargain homes, makes it hard for them to get wealth to bash the things that they privation to do.
In addition, it's going to sound a clump of radical disconnected of wellness care. We cognize that the Republicans person tried for a decennary to undo the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare, and this is benignant of a backdoor mode to instrumentality wellness security distant from radical that truly request it the astir present successful our nation.
And it's going to origin wellness security costs to spell up for a batch of people. One of the president's biggest issues helium campaigned connected was reducing prices rapidly. On time one, we're going to chopped the costs.
Well, costs are not going down. Inflation – ostentation is going to beryllium affected by this deficit. Interest rates are going to enactment high, and this is going to person a antagonistic interaction connected wellness security costs for galore radical successful our country.
WEIJIA JIANG: I cognize that you conscionable brought up Medicaid and imaginable nonaccomplishment of coverage. What bash you accidental to immoderate Americans who mightiness wonder, well, wherefore should the able-bodied not person to enactment successful bid to entree Medicaid?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: Well, you person to recognize that 92 percent of the radical that are capable to enactment are presently working, and the 8 percent that are not are often radical that are taking attraction of disabled children.
Remember that two-thirds of the radical successful nursing homes are connected Medicaid. One-tenth of each the veterans successful the United States of America are connected Medicaid. Medicaid is simply a lifeline for truthful galore radical that are facing specified hard circumstances that we can't adjacent perchance imagine.
And wherefore would we beryllium taking wellness security and nutrient benefits distant from immoderate of the astir needy Americans, portion we're providing what I judge is an unnecessary taxation interruption for immoderate of the wealthiest Americans? It conscionable doesn't marque consciousness that you're reducing taxes for immoderate of the wealthiest people, hurting immoderate of the lowest-income people, portion blowing the biggest shortage successful the fund that we've had successful the past of the country.
Those things conscionable don't adhd up.
WEIJIA JIANG: Well, conscionable past week, you said you hold with 75 percent of what's successful this package. That's a beauteous important number. So wherefore isn't it worthy the 25 percent that you don't like?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: Because those things that I conscionable mentioned are truthful devastating.
I similar the thought that we're investing much wealth to unafraid the border. I similar the thought that we are paying – providing taxation breaks to lower-income folks and hardworking mediate people folks and radical aspiring to the mediate class.
I similar the thought of providing taxation breaks for those folks. But wherefore are we providing – and erstwhile the system is doing arsenic good arsenic it has been implicit the past respective years, wherefore would we beryllium providing a taxation decrease, taxation breaks for immoderate of the wealthiest Americans successful our country, portion blowing a monolithic spread successful the deficit?
WEIJIA JIANG: Congressman, I privation to crook to an op-ed that you wrote successful "The Wall Street Journal" past week saying Zohran Mamdani's triumph successful the New York City's Democratic mayoral superior should beryllium a – punctuation – "loud wakeup telephone for Democrats."
What lessons bash you deliberation your enactment tin larn from – from his campaign?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: Well, you know, I disagree with Mr. Mamdani. I person to marque that precise wide that, you know, I'm a Democratic capitalist. I'm not a Democratic socialist.
And – but you person to admit that helium tapped into something. He tapped into the aforesaid happening that Donald Trump tapped into, which is that radical are acrophobic that the system is not moving for them. Affordability and the system is the fig 1 contented successful the country.
And, excessively often, Democrats are not perceived arsenic being focused connected affordability and the system and the mediate class, and radical aspiring to the mediate people and their economical concerns. They spot Democrats arsenic being chiefly focused connected reproductive rights and connected LGBT protections, which are important issues, but they're not the issues that radical deliberation astir each nighttime erstwhile they're lying successful furniture reasoning astir paying their bills oregon erstwhile they're talking astir however they're going to nonstop their kids to school.
So Democrats person got to bash a amended occupation learning from some Trump and Mamdani, not with their solutions, which I deliberation are wrong, but with the diagnosis of the problem, that we're frustrated, we're concerned. Everybody successful America, whether you're a right-wing blimpish oregon a left-wing progressive, should judge that, successful instrumentality for moving hard, you marque capable wealth truthful you tin unrecorded a bully life.
You tin bargain a home, you tin amended your children, you tin wage for your wellness insurance, you tin discontinue 1 time without being scared. People don't consciousness that currently, and we person to bash a amended occupation of communicating that.
WEIJIA JIANG: Well, I'm gladsome you brought up the perception, due to the fact that you besides wrote that Democrats indispensable admit the aboriginal starts with a connection of economical information for American families.
I covered the Biden campaign. I covered the Harris campaign. That was the halfway of their messages. So what's the occupation here? Is it the messenger? Is it the messaging? Because they person that connection already.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: It's a combination.
Number one, the Democratic Party arsenic a full has to person this level that focuses connected what the radical attraction about. They attraction astir the economy. They attraction astir immigration. They attraction astir taxes. They attraction astir crime. They attraction astir wellness care.
But past we person to admit that the media infrastructure is fractured. And Trump figured it retired earlier the Democrats have, which is that it's not conscionable accepted media, similar your shows and newspapers, but it's societal media. It's podcasts.
Podcasts, the apical 500 podcasts successful America, 400 of the apical 500 are right- leaning, 100 are left-leaning, and of the 100 left-leaning ones, fractional of them bushed the you-know what retired of the Democrats. Then you person different nationalist media, and past you person immoderate of this taste and underground media related to WeChat and WhatsApp and antithetic types of apps that radical use.
So we person to pass crossed each those platforms, due to the fact that radical are getting their messages successful these fractured environments and surviving successful these echo chambers. And we person to bash a amended occupation communicating crossed each these platforms and getting Democrats arsenic a full to absorption connected the economy, immigration, et cetera.
WEIJIA JIANG: All right, Congressman, we are each trying to larn each those caller languages. Thank you truthful overmuch for your clip this morning.
And we'll beryllium close backmost with a batch much Face the Nation. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
WEIJIA JIANG: If you're looking for much Face the Nation, including extended interviews and peculiar content, you tin sojourn our YouTube leafage oregon subscribe to our podcast. It's disposable connected each platforms, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon.
We volition beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
WEIJIA JIANG: We volition beryllium close backmost with an interrogation with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns connected the American Revolution.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
WEIJIA JIANG: Welcome backmost to FACE THE NATION.
A time up of America's 249th birthday, "CBS EVENING NEWS" co-anchor John Dickerson met up with filmmaker and historiographer Ken Burns astatine Monticello, Virginia, the location of our 3rd president, Thomas Jefferson. Burns has a caller movie retired this November connected PBS entitled "The American Revolution," and helium gave america a preview.
(BEGIN VC)
JOHN DICKERSON: You telephone the – the revolutionary play a civilian war.
KEN BURNS (Documentary Filmmaker): It is.
JOHN DICKERSON: Was that ever your conception of the –
KEN BURNS: No.
JOHN DICKERSON: How did you travel to deliberation of it that way?
KEN BURNS: I deliberation due to the fact that there's nary photographs and there's nary quality reels and they're in, you know, stockings and breaches and powdered wigs there's a consciousness of region from them. I deliberation we besides are truthful proud, rightfully, of the powerfulness of the large ideas that we – we conscionable don't privation to get into the information that it was this bloody civilian war, patriots against loyalists, disaffected people, autochthonal people, enslaved and escaped radical wrong it, overseas powers that are successful – yet engaged successful this. This is simply a large satellite warfare by the end.
I deliberation we – we – we possibly are fearful that those large ideas are diminished and they're not successful immoderate way. They're, successful fact, go adjacent much inspiring, that they look from the turmoil.
JOHN DICKERSON: How should we deliberation astir the Declaration of Independence this play successful America successful our contiguous day?
KEN BURNS: First of all, I deliberation the American Revolution is the astir important lawsuit since the commencement of Christ successful each of satellite history.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why?
KEN BURNS: I mean it turned the satellite upside down, which is the cliche. Before this moment, everyone was a subject. Essentially nether the regularisation of idiosyncratic else. We had created successful this infinitesimal a precise brand-new happening called a citizen. And this has had almighty effects. It's going to acceptable successful question revolutions for the adjacent 2 positive centuries each astir the world, each attempting to benignant of springiness a caller look to this thought that each men are created equal, that they're endowed by their creator with definite unalienable rights. And that's a big, large woody successful satellite history.
So, what happens present is I accidental you could, you know, miss the constituent and accidental it's a quarterfinal betwixt Englishmen, but it is the opening of thing perfectly caller successful the world. And – and that is thing to celebrate. And to understand, too, that it comes retired of truthful overmuch part that's going connected betwixt the states. People successful New Hampshire and Georgia are – they're – they're from antithetic countries. They judge antithetic things, that you could person the divisions of – of loyalists and patriots, you could person this – each the – the things that are rolling successful these colonies and recognize that retired of that we could inactive fig retired a mode to travel together.
JOHN DICKERSON: Americans deliberation they're beauteous divided close now. They weren't astir arsenic divided arsenic they were during the revolutionary period.
KEN BURNS: Here is the elemental thing. We're ever divided. So, it – it ebbs and flows a small bit, but we're ever person large differences.
You know, Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal is not met with cosmopolitan approval. The Civil War kills 750,000 Americans we deliberation implicit the contented of slavery. We person our ain revolution. There are batch of periods. The Vietnam period, erstwhile we're truthful peculiarly divided.
So, I deliberation there's a small spot of chickenhearted little, you know, oh, the entity is falling due to the fact that present things are ever worse present than they ever were. The lone – the crushed wherefore historians, and God knows I'm an amateur historian, consciousness a benignant of optimism is due to the fact that there's thing familiar. There's, you know, the Bible says there's thing caller nether the sun, quality quality fundamentally doesn't change, and that's true.
What's large astir the gyration is, for a infinitesimal things really – determination was thing caller successful the world. And that's the happening that we request to use. That's the leverage we person to bring america backmost to the quality to talk to 1 another, to recognize however you lick your differences, arsenic opposed to the benignant of crockery of choler and – and distrust that seemed to be, you know, everyplace now.
JOHN DICKERSON: What is simply a citizen's work now?
KEN BURNS: A citizen's work present is the aforesaid arsenic it's ever been. And that's the astir important thing. There's a fantastic phrase, a small spot aboriginal from the celebrated words, wherever Jefferson says, "all acquisition has shown that mankind are much disposed to endure portion evils are sufferable." Meaning, we each benignant of person gravitated to beryllium nether authoritarian rule. You know, the trains moving connected time, oregon we get astatine slightest this. But we're going to necessitate of you to beryllium a national thing more. It's got to beryllium active.
The pursuit of happiness is not the acquisition of things successful a marketplace of objects, but lifelong learning successful a marketplace of ideas. That's what the founders said. To beryllium virtuous, to unrecorded a virtuous life, to continually amended yourself is what was required to prolong this republic. And I deliberation that's what we've gotten distant from. Everything is benignant of each individualized. We're each escaped agents. We don't recognize that freedom, the happening that we tout, is not conscionable what I want, but besides that's volition with what we need.
And I deliberation what happens is that erstwhile we survey these words, we tin spell backmost to the consciousness of newness and freshness that they represented and rededicate ourselves. And that means me, for me, and you for you, to this thought that the pursuit of happiness is astir lifelong learning. It's astir becoming ever much educated to the work of citizenship. And that's a huge, immense responsibility. Not conscionable to instrumentality your feed, not conscionable to spell with the flow, not conscionable to get your accusation that – that benignant of ratifies what you already thought, but to really research what my neighbour thinks.
JOHN DICKERSON: Being an American, arsenic Jefferson saw it, arsenic the founders saw it, was a continuing work to prosecute with its history.
KEN BURNS: That's precisely right. And – and this is truly important, successful bid to signifier the government, they had to scope backmost done the mediate ages, done the acheronian ages, backmost to antiquity, to bring up these ideas similar virtuousness and temperance and moderation and each of the things that each of them were looking for.
I mean, the astonishing things is, we're present astatine Thomas Jefferson's house, but we don't person a state without his words, but besides we don't person a state without George Washington. And yet we cognize astir each of these men. They're profoundly flawed, successful galore important ways. And I deliberation today, successful our binary culture, you know, wherever everything's a 1 oregon a zero, oregon it's a reddish authorities oregon a bluish state, it's my mode oregon the highway, we've forgotten that it's imaginable to tolerate, arsenic we bash among – with the radical we love, their strengths and their weaknesses.
So, heroism is not perfection if we tin instrumentality an humanities presumption that permits america to spot a Jefferson and a Washington successful – successful these precise analyzable knowing of them, past it's imaginable to past breathe, to person immoderate country to recognize who we are now, who we were then, and wherever we mightiness be, which is, of course, the astir important thing. All the anxiousness astir this contiguous infinitesimal is truly not truthful overmuch astir the contiguous moment, but about, volition we survive.
JOHN DICKERSON: Can you speech astir the genius and brilliance of his words without sitting close successful the mediate Jefferson's owning of slaves, enslaved people?
KEN BURNS: No. I deliberation this is the important thing. And someway we've – we've gotten to the thought that you conscionable don't privation to messiness with the bully worldly and let's conscionable unreal – wage nary attraction to that antheral down the – you can't bash that. A bully communicative is simply a bully communicative is simply a bully story. And this is simply a truly bully portion of the story. It's complicated. It's dark. There are quality beings successful this location who are owned by a idiosyncratic who has articulated cosmopolitan rights for everyone. And what's truthful large is that the vagueness of the words has allowed everybody to plow done and marque it their own. Not conscionable here, but each astir the stuff.
So – so, erstwhile helium says "pursuit of happiness," that whitethorn beryllium the cardinal word. When we accidental a "more cleanable union" successful the Constitution aboriginal on, that whitethorn beryllium the cardinal word, that this is simply a process that we're engaged in. And truthful possibly the – the poetry, but besides the vagueness of the words person opened a doorway that person – person – person allowed women to travel through, that person allowed enslaved radical to person citizenship, that person expanded successful truthful galore antithetic ways. And each astir the world, that that's – this is progress.
And so, I deliberation going backmost and knowing them for the heavy undertow that's present, and sometimes truly discomforting undertow astir it, is OK. It's – thing is diminished. Don't marque a Madison Avenue mentation of - - of – of our past, but observe the grittiness. And I deliberation successful this case, the unit of the American Revolution, we bash a work to those ideas that we deliberation request to beryllium protected. I mean, with – this is not ideas that are fixed successful amber, you know, this is – this is – this is gritty, gritty stuff. People died. Lots of radical died warring for this successful – successful conscionable horrific struggles erstwhile the main signifier of sidesplitting was a bayonet. That's not fun.
JOHN DICKERSON: President Trump has issued an enforcement successful which helium says fundamentally past has gotten retired of equilibrium arsenic of the American government, either funds it done museums oregon nationalist parks, and helium said alternatively that – that this national relation successful past should alternatively "focus connected the greatness of the achievements and the advancement of the American people."
So, President Trump thinks there's an imbalance successful the mode we speech astir history. How bash you spot that?
KEN BURNS: I don't spot the imbalance. I deliberation we request to observe the greatness of the American people. The greatness of the American radical comes from telling these compensated stories. And – and – and that's a bully communicative is simply a bully communicative is simply a bully story. That's what you're looking for. You don't privation to conscionable accidental is, different it's conscionable benignant of slogans that are – that are enactment up connected the wall.
We privation to consciousness that we cognize who Thomas Jefferson is. We request to recognize the interior struggles that Abraham Lincoln had. We person to recognize what was going done Rosa Parks' caput erstwhile she, you know, refused to springiness up her spot connected the bus. This successful nary mode instrumentality distant from the glory (ph), it makes the communicative fuller and richer and – and permits acquisition for everyone. You - - you privation a – a past to beryllium analyzable due to the fact that it gives everybody a accidental to ain oregon person entree to it.
JOHN DICKERSON: Diversity of dependable successful storytelling was important to you. That besides is nether battle astatine the moment. The president fundamentally is trying to region each efforts to support diverseness successful mind. Is determination thing that is mislaid successful that?
KEN BURNS: Well, you know, there's a spot successful the wagon instrumentality of each the antithetic spokes into the hub. We're each looking for the hub, immoderate the hub is. Meaning, you know, thing that pulls america together, that chorus. That's what we're each about.
And truthful that – the spot of that instrumentality has to bash with having the spokes and having a multitude of perspective. The impulse for immoderate is to accidental there's lone 1 perspective. And that's existent of galore antithetic things. Sometimes accidental it's got to beryllium lone from this perspective. It's got to beryllium Freudian oregon it's got to beryllium Marxist economical oregon it's got to beryllium symbolic oregon it's got to be, you know, post-modern, oregon immoderate the happening is. You don't request that.
(END VT)
JIANG: We'll beryllium close backmost with much of John's speech with Ken Burns.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
(BEGIN VC)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A changeable rings out. No 1 knows wherever the changeable came from. That leads to promiscuous shooting. Mostly by the British. It's not a battle. It's not a skirmish. It's a massacre.
Now humor has been shed. Now the antheral connected your near has been changeable done the head. Your neighbour connected the close has been severely wounded. You can't enactment that genie backmost successful the bottle.
(END VC)
JIANG: That's a preview of Ken Burns' upcoming caller movie "The American Revolution."
Here's much of John Dickerson's speech with the documentary filmmaker.
(BEGIN VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Going backmost to this thought of ongoing nourishment of history, portion of, spell backmost to the Revolution, to larn who we are now. Do you ever deliberation of this enactment arsenic an intervention?
People don't re-read The Declaration each Fourth of July, arsenic Thomas Jefferson wanted. People, successful your telling, look to person mislaid show of immoderate of the parts of our founding. Maybe we don't adjacent cognize them due to the fact that we've been told antithetic kinds of stories. Is this an intervention?
KEN BURNS: No. Intervention imposes betwixt the storyteller, that would beryllium us, and the communicative we're trying to archer and our audience, immoderate benignant of larger, high-fluting purpose. A bully communicative is simply a bully communicative is simply a bully story. And that's each we're funny successful doing.
The Fourth of July is my favourite vacation due to the fact that you beryllium determination connected a blanket, connected a field, looking astatine these fireworks with each of these different radical successful the acheronian and you stock with them successful communal that we hold to fundamentally a condemnation successful a – successful a – successful a document, written, you know, by a Virginian who lived here, you know, 249 years ago. That's truly almighty stuff.
So, the information that it tin beryllium misinterpreted by some, this is ever going to beryllium the case. Manipulated by others, this volition ever beryllium the case. Sort of, you know, genuinely embraced but for the incorrect reasons, this volition ever beryllium the case. But we still, we know. We recognize that we clasp these truths to beryllium self-evident, adjacent though they weren't, that each men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with definite unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It doesn't get immoderate amended of that.
JOHN DICKERSON: You've told a batch of your stories connected PBS. PBS is nether threat.
KEN BURNS: All disconnected them. All of them. All of them (INAUDIBLE).
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you disquieted astir the aboriginal of PBS?
KEN BURNS: Of people I am. And I've ever been disquieted astir it. In the 1990s, I deliberation I testified successful the House oregon the Senate, successful appropriations oregon authorization astir the endowments are astir the Corporation for Public Broadcasting a fractional twelve times.
JOHN DICKERSON: Make the lawsuit for PBS.
KEN BURNS: It is the Declaration of Independence applied to the communications world. It's a bottommost up. It's the largest web successful the country. There's 330 stations. It mostly serves, and this is wherever the elimination of backing for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is truthful shortsighted, it chiefly serves agrarian areas successful which the PBS awesome whitethorn beryllium the lone they get. They besides person not lone our bully children's and primetime stuff, they person Classroom of the Air continuing education, homeland security, harvest reports, weather, exigency information. That we're going to instrumentality away? This seems foolhardy and seems misguided, chiefly due to the fact that determination is simply a cognition among a fistful of radical that this is someway a bluish oregon a near helping happening erstwhile this is the spot that for 32 years gave William F. Buckley a show. And it's – I mean it's – and it's - - that amusement is, by the way, is inactive going connected and moderated by a conservative.
So, I conscionable deliberation that possibly we're throwing the babe retired with the bathwater. And I couldn't bash – fto maine personalize it. And I didn't privation to. John, I couldn't bash immoderate of the films I've done without them being connected PBS. I – I could spell into a streaming work oregon a premium cablegram time and get each 1 of the millions of dollars it took to bash this successful 1 pitch. But they wouldn't springiness maine 10 years. They privation it successful a twelvemonth oregon a twelvemonth and a half. And that's – I can't bash that. Same with Vietnam. Same with the Civil War. Same with jazz. Same with the nationalist parks. Same with, you know, the Roosevelts. All these – state music. All of those person taken clip to incubate. And that has been nether the strategy that has 1 ft tentatively successful the marketplace and the different proudly out. Kind of similar the nationalist parks, oregon the Declaration of Independence, applied to the landscape.
These are truly good, American institutions that correspond everybody from the bottommost up, which is what it's ever about. That's the essence of what Thomas Jefferson was talking about.
JOHN DICKERSON: As idiosyncratic who worked truthful hard connected telling the communicative of slavery and enslaved radical successful assorted antithetic ways, what did you larn astir slavery successful America from moving connected this?
KEN BURNS: It's truthful analyzable and truthful interesting. I – I deliberation the happening that was astir striking that's travel to maine is that it was truly wide that our founders, adjacent those founders who owned different quality beings, knew that the instauration of slavery was indefensible. It's lone aboriginal successful the 19th period that you'll benignant of marque – you effort to marque excuses for wherefore it's OK. And that they're truly wrestling with ways. But determination are quality beings that are owned by different quality beings. It's very, precise complicated. And you tin ne'er accidental a categorical them astir anybody. And that's each we do.
Look, I person – I person made films astir the U.S. for each of my nonrecreational life. But I've besides made films simultaneously astir us. All of the intimacy of that and each the majesty and complexity and contradiction and contention of the U.S. And the happening I've learned, if I've learned anything, is that there's lone "us." There's is nary "them." And we're perpetually being told there's a them. There is nary them.
JOHN DICKERSON: If determination is lone "us," and nary "them," it is besides a strain successful American history, look astatine them, spell get them.
KEN BURNS: That's right. It's the simplest thing. It's the authoritarians' playbook.
JOHN DICKERSON: There's a batch of speech astir "them" these days. Are you hoping to pierce that with this telling of America's beginning?
KEN BURNS: I – I don't person a conscious tendency to bash this. This implies a benignant of agenda, a benignant of a governmental agenda.
We consciously understand, arsenic we're moving connected a film, however galore – however overmuch is rhyming successful the contiguous and it changes a small spot and changes that. But we don't ever effort to enactment neon signs going, look however overmuch this is truthful overmuch similar today. We conscionable privation to fto that resonate. And you go, ohio my goodness, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, they whitethorn person wigs and they whitethorn person breaches. They're precise overmuch similar us.
JOHN DICKERSON: Because if you enactment excessively overmuch of a thumb connected the scale, you ruin the communicative and past you termination the powerfulness of the story.
KEN BURNS: That's precisely right. You person to fto it archer the story. Our occupation is to beryllium a bully storyteller, period, afloat stop, extremity of sentence.
JOHN DICKERSON: Which means telling a communicative good capable that idiosyncratic mightiness instrumentality a decision that's wholly antithetic than the 1 –
KEN BURNS: Oh, absolutely. You – I – you know, I retrieve watching this and going, oh, my God, there's – there's really places for each antithetic kinds of radical to find purchase. You know, this is simply a large – a bully communicative is simply a large location with tons of antithetic doors. And we thin to spell done the beforehand doorway and deliberation that's it. Somebody whitethorn beryllium coming successful the broadside door. Somebody whitethorn beryllium coming – climbing up and – and breaking successful from the 2nd story. However you get in, you're in. And that's each you privation is the – it – you know, stories are invitations. Like, honey, however was your day, right? It doesn't begin, I backed dilatory down the driveway, avoiding the garbage tin astatine the curb. You – you conscionable edit quality acquisition and that's what we spent the past 10 years doing. We were saying, this communicative of the American founding, our – our instauration myth, is arsenic important a communicative to get close arsenic anything. And we've spent 10 years trying to get it right.
JOHN DICKERSON: What is the quality betwixt the Revolutionary War and the American Revolution?
KEN BURNS: Benjamin Rush, who is the large doc of the time, 1 of the signors of The Declaration, said that erstwhile it was over, that the – the American warfare is over, but the American gyration is going on. I deliberation if you judge the thought of pursuit of happiness, if you judge the thought of a "more cleanable union," you realize, arsenic we bash successful our ain lives and our ain work, successful our ain relationships, that it's astir process. That we're engaged successful an ongoing tendency to execute these things. This perfection is what you privation to tilt for. It's unattainable, obviously. But if you're not engaged successful the progressive pursuit of perfection, self, relationship, community, country, world, past you're stopped. You're static. And you're not going forward. And I deliberation there's not an American that does not privation to spell forward.
(END VT)
JIANG: John's afloat interrogation with Ken Burns is posted connected our YouTube transmission and our web page. You tin besides perceive to the connected the FACE THE NATION podcast platform.
We'll beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JIANG: Well, that's it for america today. Thanks for watching. Margaret volition beryllium backmost adjacent week. FOR FACE THE NATION, I'm Weijia Jiang.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
English (US) ·